www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix ?

>>>Does not the Imitation of Christ say it is much safer to be under authority than to be the authority?<<<

Yes it does, as does Scripture.

I have had many a debate with many a Protestant over this tenent of our Faith

Columcille

Dear Columcille,

Since "Columcille" is your adopted name for this Forum, I wanted to wish you a happy St Columcille's Day which is today on the Julian Calendar!

Here is the Irish Saint's Troparion:

By thy God-inspired life, thou didst embody both the mission and the disperson of the Church, most glorious Father Colum Cille. Using thy repentance and voluntary exile, Christ our God raised thee up as a beacon of the True Faith, an Apostle to the heathen and an indicator of the Way of salvation. Wherefore, O holy one, cease not to interced for us that our souls may be saved!

Nigel Tranter's book, COLUMBA, is an excellent biography of Columcille too!

Alex

Wow! Thank you.

I'm always up for a new book as well

Columcille

Dear friends:

Speaking for myself, I prefer the title "Theotokos" for Mary and wish that all Catholics would use that title (in translation, if that suits) instead of looking for odd or confusing appelations. Describing Mary as the "Christ-Bearer" says so much - I think it includes all other titles, including "mediatrix." But "mediatrix" is a good title, although "co-redemptrix" may be theologically confusing to some, I fear.

Devotion to the Mother of God is a good thing. Indeed, I am very devoted to her and I believe she is a powerful saint and intercessor and the help of all Christians.

Mrs. P

Dear Missus,

And I also like the Byzantine title for the study of Mary, "Theotokology," that some use!

Alex

Theotokos is NOT our Savior. Jesus Christ is our Savior. Theotokos is only a bearer of our Savior.

Yes, devotion and veneration to her is important. But is not essential to our salvation.

You see, God will still become Man if Adam and Eve never fell. Hence there's no salvation involved if that is the case...therefore Mary still will not be our savior.

God planned to become Man anyway...whether Adam and Eve sinned or not. Why? Because He wants to be within us. Just as husband and wife are one...Christ and the Church are one.

The only problem of His incarnation was the fact He was willing and had to die for our sins and He did anyway. It's just too bad that Adam and Eve sinned in the first place.

Human beings...are made in the image of God and to partake His Life. And our life on earth is a stepping stone to the climax of our relationship with Him...which is Eternal Life in Heaven. Death has brought a full HALT of our stepping stones to heaven, hence prevented us from going any further. But thank God He has risen from the dead...to restore humanity and opened up the stepping stones to heaven.

He would still become Man anyway. That's why satan was very upset and refused to serve God because he knew that God will become Man so that man can become God (Theosis) thus elevating man above angels...which satan didn't like...due to his pride.

God bless.

SPDundas

Through the Intercession of the Theotokos, O Savior Save us!!!

I would like to chip in my two cents! I, although a devoted follower of St. Thomas Aquinas, will sound very much like an Easterner today! :-) Although it cannot be argued that one does not NEED devotion to the Blessed Virgin to be saved, I would also say that one would certainly be deficient in the faith if one did not recognize the power of the Most Holy Mother. She is more than just a powerful Saint. She is the Queen of Saints, rightfully exulted above all other Saints because of her fiat. (hyperdulia) To me,, (a Latin no less :-) ) it sounds too "legalistic" to ignore her soteriological role. That is tantamount to Evangelical Protestantism. "Accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, and everything else is moot." Although this is an extreme example, I would say that a loss of Marian piety waters down the Faith. We certainly see it with the Modernists who knock down Mary. They also knock down the Holy Eucharist, and de-emphasize Christ's Divinity.

We need the Holy Virgin Mary because without her, the faith loses the transcendetal relationship between perfection in creation (Blessed Virgin) and God Incarnate (Our Lord)

BTW, I have to stick up for the titles given to the Blessed Mother. Of course she is the Holy Mother of God. However, that is not the only title I would like to give her.
At Lourdes, she defined herself as the "Immaculate Conception." Martin Luther himself called her, after Christ, the "fairest gem in Christendom." I believe that since she is the perfect Creature, all titles of honor that do not make her out to be Divine (Queen of Patriarchs, Queen of Martyrs, Tower of Gold, Tower of Ivory, for example) are perfectly fitting.
Thanks and God bless!
Bill Tooke

I'm not sure that the main focus of this thread is whether or not the Mother-of-God (=theotokos) is worthy of veneration or not. I thought it was whether one could postulate that Mary was "co-redemptrix".

In English, the prefix co- has the meaning of equal actor; co-founder (equal founders), co-chairmen (equal chairmen). Giving Mary the title 'co-redemptrix' implies an equal standing with Christ. I'm with missus-p on this point: the term itself can lead to serious misunderstanding.

I'm sure that Mary's 'fiat' is extremely important in our understanding of how the events of salvation history came to pass. But I think it's beyond the pale to say that if Mary hadn't agreed to the angel's proposition then salvation would have been thwarted. If Mary's role is that critical, then we'd better make some room for Sts. Joachim and Anne, Mary's parents, for without them...........

It's pretty clear from Christian history: Christ, the Son of God, came to earth and through His passion, death and resurrection brought salvation. Mary, the Mother of God, has a central role to play in salvation because she responded affirmatively to the angel's proposition and supported the Savior in His earthly life. That is what she did; and that is why we honor her. I don't think it's proper to add other 'job descriptions'; she has done enough.

Blessings!

Dear David;

Which religious orders are behind this?

I'm not really very well read on this issue.

Thanks,
Stefan

Although I agree that at this present time, the dogmatic declaration of the Blessed Virgin as Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix of all Graces, and Auxiliatrix would not be helpful in ecumenism, it still has to be noted that at least in the West, we acknowledge the Holy Virgin as these things. We also believe that these are also her "roles" as well, just like we Latins believed in the Immaculate Conception since the days of Blessed John Duns Scotus. The actual formal declaration does not "free" these titles from some lexiconic purgatory. They are like the "Blesseds." They do not have Universal feasts, but can be celebrated locally. One should have the right to celebrate the Blessed Virgin "locally" as Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix. Saying she has "done enough" is accurate but at the same time, giving her these titles does not raise her to the level of Deity. Saying she has "done enough" is kind of "legalistic" don't you think? ;-)

I will state that care must be taken that these titles are not forced upon the Universal Church until a formal declaration is made from Rome.

I agree with you Dr. John that the term "co" in English rings hard on English ears, but that does not have to be the case.

As many know, "Co" in Latin means "with." To use an acting model, Mary is the "co-star" in Salvation. The "co" there implies a subservient, inferior, but important role. This English problem with "Co" can be greatly alleviated with a translation like "Woman With The Redeemer." Or "One who intimately tied to the Redeemer." If accurate translations can be given, then I think the problems with "Co-Redemptrix" will fade away.


God bless

Bill

Thanks for your thoughtful response!

I went to one of my handy dictionaries to check out the usage of "co-" as a prefix. Webster's "New World" tells us: "co-": 1) together [coact]; 2) mutually equally [coextensive] joint or jointly [copilot]."

The "New Collegiate" edition tells us: "co-": with: together; joint; [coexist] [coheir]; 2) in or to the same degree [coextensive] 3) one that is associated in an action with a usually lesser share in duty or responsibility: alternate; deputy."

I think missus-p's fear that Mary could be placed on an equal status with Christ through linguistic terminology is a real one. It's just the way that we use language. And if there is a danger of implying heretical beliefs, then we should stay as far away from this as possible. Thus, in the Byzantine Church, we are quite content with our terminology (and Lord knows we have more than enough of it!) and are reluctant to introduce novelty in our devotions.

I've never really heard any coherent 'theology' to explain the use of the titles. If the idea is to say that without Mary there could be no salvation, then that has clearly crossed the line. If the theological logic postulates that Mary's affirmation of acceptance of God's will is necessary for salvation, then -- ceteris paribus -- we too are "co-redemptrix" since it is only through our own affirmations that our salvation can be achieved.

I can understand the desire of Christian people to establish a special veneration of the Mother of God over and above the other saints; but we should be very cautious in using terminology that can potentially seduce folks into heretical beliefs.

As noted above: "One should have the right to celebrate the Blessed Virgin "locally" as Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix." That depends upon the bishop, and him alone, since he is the one charged with the guidance of the diocese under his care.

Blessings!

Stefan,
I will admit that I haven't looked very deeply into this, but it does appear as though the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate are promoting this through their web site found at http://www.marymediatrix.com/


Your little brother in Christ,
David

Dr.John,

Right on the money on all counts!

Columcille

Dear Friends,

Again, I see the issue not as to whether Our Lady IS a Co-Redemptrix etc., but whether any such further qualification of Her role by way of doctrine is necessary - and it certainly is not.

Her role as Theotokos was defined by the Church to express its Orthodox faith in the Incarnation of God in Christ.

Is faith in and devotion to the Theotokos necessary for salvation?

The Orthodox Church and the Eastern CAtholic Churches would answer "yes."

If we say that right belief in the Theotokos is necessary for salvation, since this is integral to faith in the INcarnate Word, then veneration is also necessary.

The East does not separate "right belief" from "right worship." This is what "Orthodoxy" means, both right faith AND worship.

No one is saying that the Theotokos is the saviour of the world. We don't say that at any time during our devotion to her.

We cannot even be saved without the communion of the Church and of the Saints either.

Alex

I totally agree with you Dr. John. Well said, indeed.