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Wendy,

Yes, I do deny it. The Pope is the spokesman of the collegial body of Bishops, not the dictator of dogma for the Church. Fortunately, Pope John Paul recognizes this and I wont have to break communion with him. Here's the document I was mentioning.

>From p. 12 of the weekly edition of L'Osservatore Romano, 4 June 1997:


Declaration of the Theological Commission of the Pontifical
International Marian Academy


Request for the definition of the dogma of Mary as Mediatrix,
Coredemptrix and Advocate


.....The Commission arrived at a twofold conclusion:


1. The titles, as proposed, are ambiguous, as they can be understood
in very different ways. Furthermore, the theological direction
taken by the Second Vatican Council, which did not wish to define
any of these titles, should not be abandoned. The Second Vatican
Council did not use the title "Coredemptrix," and uses "Mediatrix"
and "Advocate" in a very moderate way (cf. _Lumen gentium_, n. 62).
In fact, from the time of Pope Pius XII, the term "Coredemptrix" has
not been used by the papal Magisterium in its significant documents.
There is evidence that Pope Pius XII himself intentionally avoided
using it. With respect to the title "Mediatrix," the history of the
question should not be forgotten: in the first decades of this century
the Holy See entrusted the study of the possibility of its definition
to three different commissions, the result of which was that the Holy
See decided to set the question aside.


2. Even if the titles were assiged a content which could be accepted
as belonging to the deposit of the faith, the definition of these
titles, however, in the present situation would be lacking in
theological clarity, as such titles and the doctrines inherent in
them still require further study in a renewed Trinitarian,
ecclesiological and anthropological perspective. Finally, the
theologians, especially the non-Catholics, were sensitive to the
ecumenical difficulties which would be involved in such a
definition.

I am familiar with the organization you refered me to. My grandmother was one of those collecting signatures. Despite the above, they still hope for a change of mind that is not going to come from Pope John Paul and continue to act like the decision to not use the titles was not made. Again, I urge caution. Some groups are fringe and others schismatic pretending to be in communion with the Pope.

Lance Weakland


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings in the Truth,
Orientale- I have not become anger at your remarks in fact I have welcomed them with sincere humility. As Orthodox we know where the Church is and where it is not. We know what it is and what it is not. There is no fear in speaking of our shortcomings or achievements. We can talk day and night about this. I may use the same tactics on you to discuss disunity with Catholic splinter groups, or the large number of protestantized Catholics or the history of conflicting ethnic Catholics in America but I do not have the desire to do so. The Church has been around since 33AD and will continue to be led by the Holy Spirit. The problems we have in both of our Churches is the same problem Christ came to conquer---sin. Let us not continue speaking of the sins of fallen humanity in both of our Churches. I truly believe true belief is a practiced belief. Orthodoxy is Orthopraxy. The teachings of the Holy Apostles and Fathers need to be our standard of living not the sins of those who call themselves Orthodox or Catholics. What they teach must be seriously accepted. We live in a society that makes up lies, excuses,promotes violence, etc which are the fruits of the Devil. Let us not fall off the straight path. We need to pray and fast together and live a virtous life. When we see something wrong we need to say it is wrong. If we do not understand something we need to ask for clarification and not pretend we have the answers. I certainly do not claim to know the solutions to the problems with the Papacy or with Orthodox jurisdictionalism. Your remark regarding intercommunion between the various churches in the Middle East is true more or less. Communion is even given to the Syriac and Coptic Orthodox Christians in our Churches on the unofficial level. However, in the near future this 1500 year breach will be healed on the official level. For people like Tim, they will continue to walk the earth with a plank in their eye. Tim is the type of person that will walk away from a pit that you have fallen in and tell you that you deserved it. Let's assume that my Patriarch and I are heretics how do you react to us? Do you continue to bad mouth us? Or do you come to save us from the pit? Or do you bury us alive because we are not worthy of salvation? Is this what Christ would do, Tim? Tim, I may view you as a heretic but I will not refrain as some will from an open and sincere discussion with you or any heretic. Because we are commissioned by Christ to preach the Gospel even though you have judged my Patriarch and I as heretical. I urge you to take the plank out of your eye hypocrite before you can even suggest one in my eye or anyones eye for that matter. I as an Orthodox have a duty to God and to humanity to do what is right and to deny Satan. There will always be issues that need to be settled once and for all. The Apostolic teachings are very clear to those who try to manipulate the Church and Her teachings about Christ that it is satanic.
In Christ,
Robert

Robert,

You wrote:

"Let us not continue speaking of the sins of fallen humanity in both of our Churches. I truly believe true belief is a practiced belief. Orthodoxy is Orthopraxy."

AMEN!

I regret going around the mulberry bush on this one, but you have stated the point succinctly and well. True belief is what one lives in practice. There are many Eastern Catholics who are Orthoprax, and these certainly are therefore also Orthodox, spiritually if not 'canonically'.

Indeed, let us pray and fast together that we may grow in Christ!

Orientale

Lance,

I do not understand your definition of �dogma� that you imply a Pope could be a �dictator of dogma.� The content of a dogma is truth revealed by God. I consider these dogmas tremendous gifts, protecting us from wasting our lives on specious speculation that may lead us into heresy (like guard rails keep my car from going over a cliff); and directing the kingdom of God in transforming the world. (I do not think it was a coincidence that the dignity of women became world policy after the dogma of the Assumption of Mary was proclaimed.)

Does anyone on this forum ever consider the huge responsibility of an infallible papacy on the poor sinner who sits on the Chair of Peter? If he fails to proclaim dogmas within their window of opportunity, he risks chaos in the Church and in the world. Yet, he must die before proclaiming a false doctrine as dogma. I have no doubt that if my Pope decided tomorrow to pronounce ex cathedra a false teaching, he would die in his sleep tonight (as did John Paul I).

Wendy

Dear Wendy,

Dogma is an expression of eternal truth so I'm unsure about your reference to windows of opportunity. The Assumption of Mary has been around as a feast day almost since Mary's dormition, commemorated with great dedication in the Orthodox world without it being dogma. A pope can declare dogma at any time. I'm sure he has access to the notes of his predecessors. Some time may be better than others times, but it shouldn't reflect on the ultimate truth of a matter.

Technically the Pope can be a "dictator" of dogma. In modern parlance we do associate "dictator" with "despot," but this is not necessarily the case. A dictator is simply one who dictates laws, judgements, etc. It is a much more efficient form of government than a republic, but the quality of government depends on the quality of the individual doing the "dictating" since it lacks any checks and balances.

What "untruth" did JP I pronounce (or almost pronounce) that caused his demise?

Dear Robert,

You have said that you are not a heretic, yet you trample upon Holy Tradition set forth by the Holy Fathers, Saints, Martyrs and Councils. You talk about a plank in my eye? Yes, I have personal short comings and commit sin. We all do. Why dont you follow your own words and not condemn those of personal sins! I have not judged you or your Patriarch for personal sins, so therefore how can I be a hypocrite? Are all of the Holy Martyrs hypocrites because they died for the faith? My friend, they died for standing up for the truth, just as I. You really can see who is Orthodox and who is not. There are many examples of how and why you are not Orthodox.

The disciples asked the Lord to tell them what will be the sign of His coming and the end of the world; and Christ, answering, begins with the words; "Take heed that no man deceive you." The danger of deception, then, shall be frightening in the last days; and that because "many shall come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and shall deceive many." Many will come saying that they are Christ, or that they are His representatives or have been sent by Him, or are teachers of Christianity, people who will claim to be Christians without really being so. And they will not remain without evoking a response in men's hearts, but they will lead many into deception.

Christ, then, is not speaking of God's obvious enemies; He is not speaking of the materialists, of the communists, or the atheists, but of those who appear as friends of God, as Orthodox without really being so in truth. It is from them that Christ wishes to save the faithful, because they are His great enemies, the hypocrites, "those able to deceive."

It is really amazing that you could call me a heretic without even proving it! Please show me were I am in heresy, so that I may repent and proclaim the True Faith! That is how anyone should be, willing to repent and be in the True Faith, instead of knowingly being in heresy ( which I have shown that your bishops are) and trying to pull the wool over the sheeps eyes. Unfortunately for the evil-one, Orthodoxy has Holy Tradition to follow, which includes the Holy Scriptures, oral teachings, writings of the holy fathers, saints and decisions of the Ecumenical Councils, which by the way can never be overturned and thrown into the trash.

The saints and Ecumenical Councils say we must never be in communion with heretics, and yet you admitt this is being done. How can you have communion with someone with a different faith? What is communion anyways? Why is it so important to remember the Holy Apostles words: "One faith, One Lord, One baptism"?

It is my prayer that all come to the knowledge of the truth and are united to the Body of Christ. I have many neighbors and friends who are not Orthodox, I love them as I love myself. If we love Jesus, we must follow His commandments, as He tells us in the Gospels. I will and do help my fellow humans in anyway possible to fulfill the Godly commandment. But when it comes to the Faith there can be no compromise, as St. Mark of Ephesus says. IF you loved your neighbor wouldnt you lead him to the One True Faith, instead of misleading him and telling him 'as long as you are a good person that is enough'? How is that true love? To assist the evil-one in destroying his soul?

I also hope that the Monophysites and Latins will accept Orthodoxy without compromise. How can one be in communion with Monophyites and claim to love the saints? What about Saint Maximus the Confessor? surely you would think he was a fanatic. Well it turns out that he was not in heresy or schism, even though that is what the Patriarchate of Constantinople called him. It was just the opposite, wasnt it? I think you get my point here. If it is no big deal to be in communion with those with a differing faith than I guess St. Maximus lost his tongue and right hand in vain. Of course, I dont believe that! Did the martyrs die in vain? Not even close.

Well there is so much more that could be said, but this will suffice for now.

God bless!

Timothy, reader

Dear Tim,
You have more than once insulted me and labeled my patriarch as heretic. Is it because we tend to listen more than we talk? How much talking do you do versus listening? You do not appreciate the idea of dialogue because you think it leads to compromising the Faith. This is false, Tim. Christ always was in dialogue with those that needed to be saved without compromising His mission. As to having communion with those who still label the Coptics, Armenians, Syrian as monophysites are in the wrong. That means you and the like. The problems between us and them have been mainly a lack of communication in particularly semantics. I wonder how fluent you are with this issue. Once the 1500 year breach is healed on the official level you will not take any credit for being the peacemaker. This communion is happening now as we speak and no thanks to your ignorance on this sensitive matter. If you only knew the issues that truly separated us from them you would have a deeper sense of appreciation for them. But because you do not know,it is easier for you to continue bad mouthing them and enforcing the categorization of heresy upon them. Do you think they would even begin listening to a person of your caliber who consistently bombards them as heretics? In the final analysis, you will be corrected and know what is Orthodoxy. At the present time you suffer from a social ill called TRADITION ALONE. And alone you will be. I pray for your return.
In Christ,
Robert

Bill Mo,

I guess what I mean by �window of opportunity� is the appropriate time for a doctrine of the Church to be introduced to the world. All dogma is already believed by the faithful, but at certain points in history, disbelief enters the ranks of the Church, which begins to be passed down to the faithful. At this time, the Pope must infallible declare the dogma, to silence the false teachers and protect his flock. It has the added advantage of proclaiming to the spiritually-disadvantaged of the world that there is truth beyond their mundane physical existence. It is Our Lord Jesus saying, �Come and see!� Being of a mystic nature (when I am not making a nuisance of myself on this forum), I also see the proclaimation of dogmas as a �making incarnate� of Christ in the world; part of the mystery of the recreation of the Earth.

I mentioned John Paul I, because his death after only 33 days had a profound effect on me. It was like the explosion of the Challenger. It brought home to me the truth that the Church is the living Bride of Jesus Christ, and He will defend Her at any cost. He chose Peter and continues to choose his successors and protect them from error for love of His Bride. Only God and His Saints know why He allowed a Pope to rule only 33 days, but I sometimes wonder why dogmatic pronouncements are so rare in the present papacy, when heresy is running rampart in the pews.

Wendy

SMILE EVERYONE! GOD LOVES US MISERABLE SINNERS!

Hello Robert,

You know nothing of me personally. You dont know that one of my closest friends is a Coptic priest! Fr. Mathais is a really nice person and has good intentions. If it were up to him, he would embrace all of the 7 Ecumenical Councils, not just 3 of them. But the fact is, the Coptic pope of Alexandria has no intention of accepting those 7 ecumenical councils, neither do the Patriarchates of "world orthodoxy" expect them to do so.

It is true that in the early 90's the coptic church has now agreed that Jesus has 'two natures', human and divine. All that needs to be done is that they must agree and accept the authority of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. We all pray that the Monophysites will embrace the orthodoxy of the holy martyrs and saints.

In Brookline, Mass. there is a small community of Coptic Monophysites who visit one of our Monasteries. They come to us so that they may see an "Orthodox" monastery, since they have no monastic establishments in the area. Our bishops have opened their arms with love towards them, and allow them to visit at anytime. Our clergy know many Monophysite clergy as well, and they do talk. So before you accuse me of not being nice to monophysites , you should get to know me first. You talk alot about personal sins and shortcomings of others. I never talked about or judged anyones personal sins or shortcomings, me being the worst!!! But I will continue to speak out about "doctrinal" transgressions! Dont expect anything less from me!

I know more of the issue than you wished I did. Let me just quote a few lines of the agreed statements reached by the Patriarchates of Antioch and the Monophysites in Syria (of course it includes all of the so-called monophysites and Patriarchates). I will not quote the documents concerning intercommunion, since it is not a issue here, you and I both know there is intercommunion:

Second Agreed Statements , 28, September 1990

8) Both families accept the first three Ecumenical Councils, which form our common heritage. In relation to the four later Councils of the Orthodox Church, the Orthodox state that for them the above points 1-7 are the teachings also of the four later Councils of the Orthodox Church.

10) Both families agree that all the anathemas and condemnations of the past which now divide us should be lifted by the Churches in order that the last obstacle to the full unity and communion of our two families can be removed by the grace and power of God. Both families agree that the lifting of anathemas and condemnations will be consummated on the basis that the Councils and Fathers previously anathemized or condemned are not heretical.

Steps to be taken:

A. The Orthodox should lift all anathemas and condemnations against all Oriental Orthodox COuncils and fathers whom they have anathematized or condemned in the past.

B. The Oriental Orthodox should at the same time lift all anathemas and condemnations against all Orthodox Councils and fathers, whom they have anathematised or condemned in the past.

C. The manner in which the anathemas are to be lifted should be decided by the Churches individually.


Just a few comments.

1) in section 8 they call the last four Ecumenical Councils "the four later councils". The reason? Because the Monophysites will never accept the authority of all 7 Ecumenical Councils. So what they did was choose certain things out of those "four later councils" and say that they agree with it!

2) in section 10 they tell us that in order to have full and official communion ( which in reality they enjoy such commuion now) all of those who were condemned at the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Ecumenical Councils will need to be overturned! How can that be? Do we know more than our holy saints and martyrs? Truly the wisdom of this world is foolishness!!! In otherwords, they can keep their saints and we can keep our saints. Even though their saints were proven heretical by their teachings. The True Orthodox Church has always believed that the Holy Spirit had guided ALL SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS.. Are we now more truthful and more knowing than our ALL-KNOWING GOD!!!??? The spirit of the anti-christ is alive and well in 'world orthodoxy', and its aim is to unite all religions.... against the One True Faith. Have you read your Bible or the fathers of the Church lately?

I think this is enough for now.

May God bless and guide you!

Timothy, reader

To Tim whom I beg God's mercy upon,
I am not moved by your remarks and I am going to be a bit harsh on you. I hope on this thread to be the last of my replys to you. I am aware of your kind. You are an outcast because of the way you speak of those, "worldly Orthodox",in a condecending manner. You speak as if you had authority which you do not. God might goes as far to test you by turning your bishop to a "worldly Orthodox" one day. What do you do? Do you leave him and go start a new church as Protestants do? Or obey him with full obeidence even when he is wrong? You probably would flee him as you have advocated earlier. Are you sure you are not a Protestant in Orthodox clothing? Think about it.Your conspiracy theory of the "worldly Orthodox uniting all religions against the One True Faith" is a figment of your imagination. Get REAL! Your mindset is way off. Only a heretic would accuse me and place words into mouth by stating I have trampled on Holy Traditions. Do you even know me? I know that you do not. Satan has possessed you. Satan thinks he is clever and witty by using you as his spokesman. You are correct when you stated that you have not judged me or my Patriarch for personal sins because you are not God Almighty.However, deep down in your darkened soul you have told me that I was a heretic because I am in communion with my Patriarch whom you reject. Denying this brings no credibility to you. I urge you to repent and confess your sins. Hypocrite, you have already judged me and the "worldly Orthodox" as heretics. But you cannot be one of us because you live in some utopian world where truth is exclusively yours. Fundamentalism is your domain. If you ever desire to be saved we will be there to pull you out of the deep, dark pit you have fallen into. You did also state"it is really amazing that you could call me a heretic without proving it".When you label "world Orthodoxy" as heretical what do you think they are going to call you, faithful? Your fundamentalism is the plank in your eye. Shame on you, Tim. You have much talent that is being wasted into a heretical mindset. This conversation has become a contest for you because you think you know the Truth. You have become well known for preaching your fundamentalism through your conversations on this thread and in Catholic chat rooms. You are right when you say that I know nothing personally of you. But I do challenge you to tell your Coptic priest friend that he is a Monophysite, heretic and that his faith in Christ is in vain because you are right. I would love to see the reaction he would give to you. You will not have one single friend. He would have every right to label you a heretic and an ignoramous. How on earth are you so certain that the Coptics " will never accept the authority of all 7 Ecumenical Councils?" Are you God the Holy Spirit? God will turn your wisdom into foolishness. The time is coming and no one will know the time or the hour but you,Tim, think you do. May God lead you to the One ,Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and away from Satan.
In Christ,
Robert

Dear Robert,

Did you know you did not quote one source of holy tradition to support your un-orthodox pronouncements? In fact, you spoke against holy tradition when you said that one is not to flee his bishop if he be in heresy!! Really???? Where did you get that teaching from? Certainly not from the whole of Holy Tradition of the Orthodox Church. Have you ever heard of the the 15th canon of the First and Second Council of Constantinople? Perhaps you should read before you speak against the saints and Holy Spirit whom inspired that council.

It is the holy canons that tell us who the heretics are, not those who themselves are guilty of doctrinal transgressions. I teach nothing new, I just abide the best I can to what has already been proclaimed as the Truth. I follow what the saints and holy fathers have to say about the faith, not those who have changed the faith.

Father Mattias' son visited MT.Athos in 1992, to see the historical sites. When the monks at one of the monasteries found out he was a Copt, they yelled; 'heretic, a monophysite heretic is here!!!!', and they ran him of of Mt. Athos. Now those are the monks you are in communion with. Even after their bishops signed agreements with the Monophysites they still called them heretics. Isnt that strange? We dont have to call them heretics to their faces, they know we have differences. After all it is Holy Tradition that defines what is heretical, not me. Who am I? I am no one! All we can do is not only to teach the truth but live it. What good is it to say that I must repent when you are full of worms? You should not judge others of personal shortcomings and sins, for the judgement you use, so should you be judged. As I said. I dont judge others for sins. I have my own struggles to worry about without having to judge others. I always say that everyone should have a spiritual father to guide them. After all we are supposed to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow our Savior. That is what it takes to be a real disciple of Christ.

IF you could, please let me know which teaching of the Orthodox Church I reject, so that I may correct myself and proclaim the True Faith. Oh, and while you are at it, check and see which heresy I am in, and which doctrinal transgressions my bishops teach, so that I may tell them. My bishops do not want to be in heresy for 1 minute. So please, let me know.. For love of God and neighbor are primary.

God bless!

Timothy, reader http://www.churchsurf.net/users/ca/sposf_cc/

Robert,

I do forgive you, Amen!

Timothy, reader

Tim,
I am correct about you. You are what we call a Protestant Orthodox. In regards to heresy, you say run. We say fight. Fight by helping those to see Christ. However, the only thing you are good at is heresy. I have made many examples for you to learn what I have been saying. Unfortunately, you want to hear what you to hear. If I fell in a pit(heresy), you would abandon me rather than save me. I would trust a samaritan over you. You live in a pit of heresy which only you can pull yourself out of. I pray for you but you would tell me not with me.
In Christ,
Robert

Tim wrote: When I was a new calendarist, I went to the Holy Virgin Cathedral with my two children
to venerate St. John of SF. They gave communion to my children even though we were
under Constantinople at that time... Ecumenists???? You bet!!!!"

Do Byzantine Catholics have a lunatic fringe too?
ROCOR ecumenical? Communing children? Please get a grip on your sectarianism, it's not what faith is about.

John

Dear John,

Yes, ROCOR are ecumenists. Whats wrong with that? Well, nothing if that is what they always practiced and believed. But it was not!

Today my friends in the GOA still take communion at the Holy Virgin Catheral in SF. I dont have a problem with that, I am not in communion with either one.

John, is it for a priest or bishop in the ROCOR to give communion to a monophysite? That is what did happen in Houston, Texas, with the bishops permission.. All of these and many other doctrinal transgressions are will documented.

Is it possible that an Episcopalian minister could concelebrate with an ROCOR priest in a marriage ceremony in an ROCOR church? IF that Episcopalian minister is allowed to concelebrate in that rite, does that mean his sacraments are valid? I am sure you already know that such a thing happened in Washington D.C. in an ROCOR church! We have the video!!!

Why did almost half of the clergy and people in the US and France leave the ROCOR in the late 1980's? Why did Abbot Adrian of the ROCOR just leave his jurisdicition this year if nothing is going on. Why have monastics recently left that church in New York?

The saints have been called worse names and endured more tortures than I have so far. I am awaiting the time when shedding my blood for my faith will be required. Where is your love John?

I forgive you for everything you said and feel against me.

God bless!

Timothy, reader