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HELP!

Can we all get along here? We're all Orthodox Christians of one sort or other -- we need to love one another, not approach one another.

I'd like to share a wonderful quote in this regard from Fr. Alexander Men, of blessed memory:

"The first Christians managed to find balance without becoming a sect: without isolation from others they found a unique way. Of course there was always the danger of becoming a sect, some sort of club. Why is the Church not a sect? Because it is open to the whole world. The sectarian mindset closes itself from people, and a kind of distortion and collapse ensue: the whole world is considered either immersed in sin, or insufficiently worthy of these chosen ones, or already predestined by God for destruction, or a host of other things. We find this mindset even among those who consider themselves Orthodox, Baptist or whatever. 'Let the world out there go up in blue flame, that doesn't concern us!' This is the sectarian mindset. 'Here we remain, the chosen ones, the saved ones.'" From "About Christ and the Church", Fr. Alexander Men.

I think Fr. Alexander has a great point -- namely that when we begin to see even our fellow Christians in a sectarian manner, we lose the spirit of Christianity. Instead we must constantly encounter one another, in openness and charity, without any preconditions, other than the love of Christ which binds us together as brothers in spite of our sinful divisions.

Orientale

Dear Wendy,

I do sympathize with the general rot affecting western Christendom in particular, but I don't think it neccessitates the Pope pronouncing more dogma. The problems are even more fundamental than that. It requires defense of basic tenets of the faith, the nature of the sacraments, etc. Alot of individuals "house of faith" are built on unsolid foundations. New dogmas now are like trying to do algebra if you don't understand addition. Clergy and laity groups that don't "get it" need to be disciplined or re-educated as to the basics of the faith. The last thing the RC church needs is to become more like the Episcopal church. The lack of will to correct the errant for the good of their souls, although it may hurt their "feelings" has long been and continues to be the downfall of the Anglican world in the west.

I wouldn't be too suspicious about JP I and his theological inclinations. Maybe the poor fellow just had a bad ticker. As Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." The most curious rumors I heard was that he was assasinated because he was going to reform the Vatican bank. As a pseudo-political office as well, there's always a certain amount of intrigue surrounding positions of power. Maybe it simply served as a reminder to all of us that even the most outwardly favored by God can be "called home" at any time. Fame is fleeting after all.

Pray for me a poor sinner.

Bill

Stay and fight?

Does a Doctor treat a burn victim by turning a blow torch on himself? How than can you stay and fight when you know not what you fight? What exactly is there for you to fight that you must stay?

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."

Dear in Christ,

My Brothers Timothy and Robert,

Please you wish to continue your vis-a vis discussion accusing one another of heresy, and the like; please take it "off-list". If you continue with the vitriol, on this list to which we Orthodox are guests (!!) I shall close this thread, and any subsequent thread which may cause such personal reaction.
I felt this was a worthwhile thread until all these personal attacks began. Please either control your exuberance, or find another venue which relishes such things.

Father Kyrill
Moderator

Dear Father Kyrill,
Thank you very much for your interference in the above discussion.God Bless!

Forgive me Fr. Kyrill.
I should know better than to be goaded and then arguing in here - a forum to learn about and share with Byzantine Catholics.
From the intelligent and objective messsages I have read in here, in seems many participants can distinquish between the various orthodox jurisdictions quite nicely while still maintaining their Byzantine Catholic understanding of things. I find that refreshing, since we Orthodox oftimes become the prey of our own hunting! And I do think the thing to do would be to "take it outside" to private e-mail or another forum (and there are others where folks can hurl anathemas to their hearts content). So forgive my "fringe" remark to the Reader Timothy - though I will only add that fringe plays an important role in Byzantine vestments and altar clothes, no?
To all who will go to your pilgrimage in Uniontown, many blessings!

In Christ,
John

Dear Fr. Kyrill,
Forgive me.

Yours in Christ,
Robert

Thank you for your comments.

I am sorry for not sticking to the subject matter "First among equals". I will try to stick to the subject at hand, as I am sure everyone else will.

This forum, East-N-West, is a nice one. Because it is not just a Roman or Eastern Catholic opinion, but of all the different Faiths and/or denominations. If someone doesnt like the point of view of another they should try and be silent about it, right? That would be hard indeed.

Thank you for the 'warning'! And your idea of taking any disagreements outside of this forum was good, I had recieve already one not so nice e-mail by John. But that is okay because I explained myself in detail to him by e-mail aswell.

Have a blessed weekend!

Timothy, reader

John P.,

Thanks for your participation in this forum and for your comments. Although there are currently issues that keep the members of the various Byzantine jurisdictions (Catholic and Orthodox) from full eucharistic communion, we all hope and pray that they will be soon resolved and that we may once again partake of the same chalice.

Until then, please know that whenever we are in a Byzantine Church of any jurisdiction and see the Gospel Book raised on high and hear the priest proclaim "Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", we know that we are among family.

My Gosh Folks!

I do not intend for anyone to fight here. I only wanted to learn about "First Among Equals."

Please do not call each other a heretic! Only Protestants are heretics. Orthodox and Catholic believe the same thing, basically. Because we share the same Seven Mysteries (Sacraments), same Tradition, same First Seven Councils, etc.

I dare ask you folks this question:

Do the Orthodox believe that the Catholic is also a True Church founded by Jesus Christ in 33 A.D.???

If you don't, then I am so very very sadden and sorry. I pity so.

I ask this because I'm a Catholic and I believe that the Orthodox is also a True Church. Actually, I believe that the Catholic and Orthodox are ONE Church. We are just barely broken apart, but not completely. I know that we have full communion between two churches but it's all *imperfect* and *incomplete*.

When I go to the Orthodox Church, I make the sign of the Cross and touch the Floor to express my belief in the Presence of Our Lord in the Tabernacle. (Touching the Floor is like genuflection in the Roman Church).

I fully believe the Orthodox priesthood is valid, so are all the other Mysteries.

In return, I expect some respect from the Orthodox towards the Catholic!!! I'm not asking, I'm expecting! I am sadden by the hatred by Orthodox towards Catholic. Why are we stabbing each other when we are actually on each other's side? We should be together and stab out heresy amoung Protestants, Muslims and other religions.

It's no wonder why Our Lord Jesus prayed so that "All may be one..." Perhaps He knew ahead of time what His Church would have become to.

Hey, let's chant together now...

"We believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen."

Thank you.
spdundas