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Let me get this right............no wait........oh my........Who's on first? What's on second......


This is getting confusing, I need a scorecard


Michael

I don't think this is completely accurate, Alex. When pressured about attending SSPX Masses, Rome admits (rather begrudgingly, IMHO) that it's not an excommunicable offense. On the other hand, the Catholic Church seems always to be encouraging Catholics to go to an EO Divine Liturgy, so as to further the spirit of ecumenism, or to learn about the Eastern Churches, etc.

The way I see it goes something like this...

Rome: "Err...yes, you may go to an SSPX Mass if it's absolutely necessary; but why not go to an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy? Yes, yes, we'd love that! Go there in an ecumenical spirit!"

I think Rome is a lot friendlier to the Orthodox than to the SSPX.

Not saying this is unfair (or fair), just stating what I think is the case.

Logos Teen

The situation with the SSPX is a discliplinary matter within the Church of Rome. The hiearchy of the SSPX incurred ipso facto canonical excommunication through the 1988 consecration of the four bishops by Archbishop Levebvre and Bishop Antonio de Castro Mayer, who themselves became excommunicated ipso facto by consecrating the four SSPX bishops. This is documented in the papal encyclical "Ecclesia Dei".

The situation with the Orthodox is entirely different. The anathemas of 1054 between Constantinople and Rome were officially and mutuatlly lifted by both churches.

While perfect communion is not yet realized between Rome and Constantinople, a similar situation of ipso facto excommunication like the SSPX does not exist with the Orthodox because of lifted anathemas and ongoing dialogue. The position of Rome with regard to Orthodox dialogue is further stated in Ut Unum Sint, Orientale Lumen, etc.

It is a matter of external ecumenical and theological dialogue between Rome and Orthodoxy, steps of reconciliation between sister churches rather than an internal matter of schism and discipline as with the SSPX.

But to condemn those RC using the Novus Ordo makes it implicit. It is all over your post. First, in the inaccuracies that you presented as Catholic "fact" in your first posts.

Regards,
elexeie

Dear Alex,
This is the first time I've heard this. Can you give some details because devotion to the Sacred Heart is Un-orthodox according to Orthodox I've met in the net. It was claimed as a wrong devotion caused by the West's wrong perception of God.

elexeie

Dear in Christ, Alex,

Like elexei, I'd appreciate some actual documentation of this too, i.e., names and locations of those canonical *Eastern* Orthodox churches that have Stations of the Cross, Devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, etc., etc., as you wrote (I am assuming you did not mean the few exceptional *Western Rite* Orthodox churches, which may very well have these Latin devotions as part of their Western Rite orientation, but this is not what you were saying). But they do not form part and parcel of Byzantine Eastern Orthodoxy. Since my new priest is from Russia, I asked him about what you wrote, and he said that he had never heard of such a thing. Perhaps you are writing about some *vagantes* with "mish-mosh" liturgics and devotions? I have encountered such bearing the name "Ukrainian" even here in the USA.

OrthodoxEast

Friends,

I disagree with the point being made that "the Orthodox Church in Eastern Europe tends to be very accommodating to Catholic converts etc." The fact of the matter is, however, that in Slovakia the Orthodox Church (yes canonical and Eastern) does possess certain popular devotions such as the Stations of the Cross in many parish churches and the Rosary is a popular devotion. I do not recall seeing much of the Sacred Heart there nor any evidence of Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament but neither would surprise me. I have been there, I have seen it. If you want names of locations that will be easy, it is almost every Orthodox parish that has a parallel Greek Catholic one. I am Orthodox, but I have no reason to lie. I have been there, I have seen it. It almost knocked me out when in the Orthodox cathedral in Sanok (Poland) I say a statue (yes, statue) the Our Lady of Fatima. What on earth it was doing there, how and why it got there I don't know, but it was there.

If you remember the number of Orthodox faithful left after the Union became succesful and consider the effects of the 1950 forced liquidation of the GCC (in Slovakia) then you know that after 1968 and later upon the collapse of Communism, etc., there were not many Orthodox faithful left. In some places there were none.

I would not call people who leave the GCC to Orthodoxy in that part of the world converts, ad much less the people who "became" Orthodox in 1950 and remained when they had an option.

The Orthodox Church in that part of the world possesses some latinizations, I don't think it is proud of them. Yet they are there. I have not, however, seen these latinizations let's say in Czech Republic or in North-Eastern Poland. So,it is clear these are accomodations to GC congregations, not RC individuals.

Tony

Dear Friends,

How is everyone today, eh?

O.K., down to business . . .

I have in my possession an Orthodox publication of the Stations of the Cross. Not only are they proud of them, it says that all Orthodox Churches should have the 15 Stations (Resurrection Station for the 15th).

I have an Orthodox prayerbook from Western Ukraine with the "Suplicatsia" Moleben for the Eucharistic Adoration.

I've never been to Eastern Europe yet, I hope to go next year.

But I've met sufficient Orthodox priests from Western Ukraine and region to know that even canonical Orthodox churches in that area have the Latin devotions mentioned.

Fr. Irenaeus Nazarko in his "History of Kyivan Metropolitans" states that Latinized practices were introduced into Orthodoxy in Ukraine and Belarus with the return of former Uniates whose Latin devotions were not discouraged so as not to upset them etc.

This was also the view taken by St Alexis Toth toward new converts to Orthodoxy.

I don't know if the Orthodox church is "accommodating" to new converts.

I'm assuming she is and I'm also assuming that the Orthodox Church in western Ukraine and elsewhere has the good, common sense not to quibble over popular devotions that form part of the religious "baggage" of its members, converts or whatever one would call them.

Something similar occurred during the time of the Baroque period when many Latin devotions came into Orthodoxy i.e. St Dmitri of Rostov and others like him for various reasons (in some cases, because they liked them).

And, OrthodoxEast, I'm sure your Russian priest friend would never have heard of this much less seen it in Russia or eastern Ukraine.

Our poster here, Peter Siwicky, who is a Subdeacon living in Poland, once posted an interview in Polish here about the Sacred Heart devotion in Orthodox Churches in that area. I don't know if it can be retrieved, but it is a fascinating interview and is a great case study in religious ethnology.

And that is my main interest in such a topic. As to its legitimacy from this or that standpoint - I leave it to you, the theological experts!

Alex

Tony you may not be suprised by this, but I was.
In my ancestral village of Mal'cov, there was an old priest at the GC church, who, when the authorities came after WWIII and told him to sign over to the Orthodox church "or there will be trouble", decided to avoid trouble and signed the documents presented to him. But every aspect of practice remained unchanged, including, I am told by some of the villagers, commemoration of the Pope in the liturgy. Perhaps these folks were truly Orthodox in communion with Rome.

[In my ancestral village of Mal'cov, there was an old priest at the GC church, who, when the authorities came after WWIII and told him to sign over to the Orthodox church "or there will be trouble", decided to avoid trouble and signed the documents presented to him.]

WOW! WWIII! I must have slept right through that one!

OrthoMan

djs,

I am not at all surprised, this the reason there are these Latin devotions present there until today. This seems to be changing in some places now however. One thing, a new sluzhebnik was printed in 1950 and apparently distributed, I don't know if it was enforced or not but I would venture to guess if it was it was not very widely enforced.

Tony

Tony,

Would you agree that if the Churches in Ukraine had followed the model of what happened in Slovakia under Dubcek (each parish voting on whether to remain Orthodox or to go back to the Greek Catholic Church) , it would have saved much of the sad and UnChristian wrangling that has taken place since the late 80's???
I understand also there are good relations generally now between the Orthodox and Greek Catholics in Slovakia. Could this also be the fruit of the different way Parish trasfers were handled??


Peace,
Brian Seraphim

Brian,

I think that the situations are different. Ukraine is majority Orthodox, with Western Ukraine being a bit of an exception while Slovakia had an Orthodox and Greek Catholic minority. Parishes are larger in Ukraine in many places. The nature of the Union there seems a bit different too, not only is it 50 years older but the way it was implemented seems different with bishops and all being involved from the start.

Some parishes in Slovakia were shared after Dubcek. The transfers were not all handled well in Slovakia from what I am told. There was a great lack of charity.

In Slovakia think the small numbers and the forced living in isolation yet together with much in common has contributed to the thawing.

Tony

Dear Tony,

Yes, the Union of Brest-Litovske is 50 years older - but the Union took time to take root where it finally did while other areas that were originally in that Union became Orthodox. Thus, L'viv didn't join the union until 1700. The western "Skete Manjavskij" never joined it.

And there were groups that came into the Union - and out of it - at different times as well, bringing with them the religious culture of their former ecclesial context, whether Latin or Eastern.

Alex

Compensating for yesterday's typo I guess.

Anyway Orthoman, I doubt that you would sleep through it; somehow I imagine you are more liklely to be at its center!