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CHB!

I think they also have mitred protodeacons...

Mitred readers just might be the next step!

-Dave

Lak Mar Mina, ya ahlan!

There is a question I have wanted to ask of an Egyptian Copt.

The sense of Coptic national identity is strong, nushkur Allah, despite the loss of Coptic as a spoken language (though Syriac is thankfully still spoken in Iraq and some areas of Syria). I would like to inquire as to how much of the Coptic mother tongue (the Fushah of it, so to speak) the average Copt understands. To what extent does he study it in the context of church life?

In IC XC
Samer

Dear Samer,

So you think that an unwillingness to learn their language is a "Copt-out?"

I'll get back to work ...

Alex

Ya marhaba, I have to go to Egypt, I'll be back in a month - but Coptic is not as dead as you think Samer ya7'ooya!

God bless you all, I'll write back when I return, and I'm sorry about that. :0)

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha

Yes, Pope Kyrillos VI is officially a Saint of the Coptic Orthodox Church with public veneration.

Check out this very interesting web site about this beautiful and holy man.

http://www.kyrillos.com/

The monks who posted the web site will also send you free booklets in the mail from Egypt. (English and Arabic.)

With Best Wishes to All!

Dear Stefan-Ivan,

Yes, I've seen that website which is truly beautiful and which calls Kyrillos "Saint."

However, as two Coptic priests have told me, he is not yet officially canonized, even though everyone does call him "Saint."

They have to wait fifty years after his death before enrolling him in the calendar, apparently.

But we can certainly venerate St Kyrillos privately as the great Saint and Miracle-Worker he is.

St Kyrillos of Alexandria, pray unto God for us!

Alex

I am about to attend my FIRST Coptic Vespers this Saturday. I will tell what I think.

I will have to get some more information about this but my uncle who was the head of the theology department at Boston University for many years was good friends with Bishop Samuel. Bishop Samuel was the Coptic Bishop who was assassinated with El-Sadat (President of Egypt). I am presently involved with a Coptic Online forum for sometime now. It appears to me that they never really adapted the (1 nature of Christ) heresy that they were accused of in the past. I hope they will be re-united with Orthdoxy and the Catholic church soon!

Interesting site is http://www.copts.com

as well as http://www.copticchurch.net

There you will find there Apostolic succession from St. Mark to the shoe maker all the way to the present Pope. They also have the BEST website with short movies about the infant Jesus and his path through Egypt. Wonderful stories about springs that He (Jesus) made come up from the ground that are still there today. I will have to find the link and post if you.

Yours in Theotokos!

Dear Ray,

Yes, you are right and the whole thing about the "One Nature" controversy was a gigantic misunderstanding.

I spoke with a Coptic priest who visited the Martyrs' Shrine in Midland a few weeks ago and he described to me how the Copts understand the Person of Christ.

It was clear to me that he understands the union of Christ's Two Natures in EXACTLY the same way as we do, but the issue of language does complicate things.

And it seemed to me that, for him, "Nature" was synonymous with "Person."

So the separation go the Egyptian Church was really a "Copt out" would you say?

Alex

Dear Samer, as you said, the sense of Coptic identity is very strong, and there has been quite a revival of it in this last fifty years, and particularly during these last two decades (Pope Shenouda has much to do with that, God keep him on his throne for many years and peaceful times). It's worth noting that the Syrian tongue still exists - but Syrians/Antiochians - to my knowledge did not have their tongues cut out for speaking their tongue. Copts did have that penalty, and the language was used only Liturgically until Pope Cyril (Kyrollos) IV revived it in the 19 century (he was quite a reformer and one of our most outstanding Patriarchs - and not nearly celebrated enough). Until this day, many "Fellaheen" (the farmers) speak Coptic fluently - and they even harvest according to our calendar only. In churches we are taught the language if the means are available, and there are still people that can speak it fluently - although the large majority do not. Our Bishop of Mallawi teaches the youth Coptic and they speak it at the university (which annoys their Muslim peers - but that's why the Muslims wouldn't let us use the language in the first place ). The majority of Copts instructed in the language can at the very least read it, a step up is being able to really know the Liturgical Coptic - and when you're at that stage it's really easy. Coptic is a very simple language, (thankfully!).

...and about Mina, yeah, I was named after both St. Mina and another person named after him that my parents loved and hoped I'd turn out like... I didn't. lol

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!

Yes, all the Popes are recorded in the calendar of Saints - if they had problems they're recorded too.

Re: Pope Cyril VI, as someone wrote, he's not officially a Saint, but most Copts call him that already since they're so sure! We have quite a few of these "modern Saints" that haven't been canonized, and we have many living Saints that are absolutely amazing.

Peace and grace.
Agape,
wak-wak
Amen, maranatha!

Dear Mina,

Yes, I positively love your "Veiled Bishop Saint."

Could you explain about St Samaan the Tanner and why there are three extra days tacked onto the Coptic Nativity Fast having to do with him?

Does your Church observe the Fast of Nineveh and when does this fall?

Alex

St. Samaan (Simon) the tanner was a very innocent layperson - he was a shoemaker by profession. He was so innocent, to the point that he took literally the instructions of Christ that if his eye offends him he should pluck it out (one of his eyes offended him when he saw a beautiful woman walk by - I won't go graphic)... The local priests and the Bishop of course, explained to him why he did not have to do that. Anyway, an advisor to the ruler of Egypt at that time went to the ruler and told him that "the Christians have a verse in their Bible that says if they have faith as small as a mustard seed they can tell a mountain to move, and it will move. If they are right, they should prove it." So the governor agreed, and went to Pope Abraam Ibn Zara'a and asked him if that verse existed, he was told that it did. So the ruler asked Pope Abraam to kindly move the mountain. So Pope Abraam asked for three days, and during those three days the whole entire church fasted and prayed. Pope Abraam would cry and cry and ask God what he should do, until the Holy Virgin Mary the Theotokos appeared to him, and told him that Samaan would be the one at whose hands the miracle would be done (the church in which she appeared is one of the oldest churches, and can still be visited in Old Cairo). They brought Simon, and on the third day, they all gathered at the mountain, thousands of Copts and Muslims, and of course the ruler. The Pope stood at the front, and behind him was St. Samaan, who was so humble and did not want anyone to know that he was doing anything. The congregation started chanting Kyrie eleison the way they do in the Liturgy, and each time they said it, St. Samaan did the sign of the cross, and the mountain would move higher and higher. Tradition has it that it went high enough that you could see the sun underneath it. Nonetheless, you need only look at the mountain today to know it moved... As for the ruler, according to Coptic tradition, he became a Christian, according to Islamic tradition, he became insane and roamed the country until he died. For that miracle we add 3 days to the forty days of Advent.

We also observe the fast of Nineveh because of a Syrian Patriarch that we had. He said that he would fast the extra week of Lent that we fast, if we fast the three days of Nineveh. Copts love to the fast, so it was a done deal. The fast of Nineveh is the Monday-Wednesday exactly two weeks before Great Lent.

In general, teh Copts have five official fasts, plus the Wednesday and Friday of every week (except for the Holy Fifty Days). We fast whenever we are in trouble as well - for example, when the massacre of Al-Kosheh happened a few years ago, all the churches in Canada fasted for three days.

Alex, I see you are in Toronto, I wonder if you went to see Pope Shenouda on the weekend when he was there...

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!

I think the question about our mitred priest was somewhere in this section...

Anyway, the Coptic priests are mitred during the Liturgy because it is seen as part of the priestly uniform - just as Aaron the Priest was instructed to have a mitre as well.

The mitre is taken off traditionally during the reading of Scripture, but I do not know the origin of this tradition.

As per discussion about the two natures, I believe that Alex pointed out that there seems to be confusion about the words "person" and "nature"...when discussing this issue with a Greek Orthodox correspondent, it became increasingly apparent that the Copts talk about "natures" as the "WHO", as Alex pointed out...but the EO and RC seem to be speaking of the "HOW" (hahaha, difference in placement of letter - a common theme in historical misunderstandings)...

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Mina/Fortunatus
Amen, maranatha!

Dear Mina,

I missed that Papal Visit!

FYI, I observe the extra three day Advent fast and the Fast of Nineveh.

I once did a bible presentation in high school on St Jonah and the Ninevites.

After explaining Jonah's wailing under the tree, I said, "He reminds me of the fellow at the Wailing Wall at Jerusalem who kept crying, 'I wanna go where my people are! I wanna go where my people are!'"

A man came by and retorted, "You are already in Israel! Where are your people?"

"In Miami Beach!" came the reply . . .

The teacher said that was the best analysis of the Book of Jonah he had ever heard . . .

Alex

Talking about Coptic crowns...the Greek Orthodox patriarch of Alexandria wears something quite similar to a imperial crown or papal tiara (he is also "pope" after all!) and a second stole "epitrachilion" over the pontificial "sakkos". In the Armenian Church priest also wear crowns as well as the two arch-deacons at the pontificial Divine Liturgy when (if I am not wrong) there are more than 6 deacons serving at the altar.