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Dear Mina,

You brought things to my knowledge that which I wasn't aware of previously. I doubted much that the language existed in any form apart from the liturgical. But that its existance as a spoken tongue to whatever extent is due to a revival rather than an unbroken continuation from the days of Christian Egypt is remarkable.

Have you seen the musalsal, "khalatee safiy'ya wad'dair"? (What did you think of it?) Pity the farmers weren't bombarding the monastery's walls with Coptic chattering. It seems they decided to omit certain details in production. At least they were faithful to the Arabic dialect of those regions. It is rare when you see an Egyptian employ the "j" rather than the "g". Mush kida?

As for the Syriani, well, it gradually disappeared from areas as all other pre-fateh Middle Eastern languages did (the Lebanese Syriacs and Maronites, I believe held onto it longer), but still is spoken in certain areas in an uninterrupted continuation (no restorations). Unfortunately, these languages are dying with urbanization. They survive in villages like Ma'loula, but emmigration to the cities is contributing to their impending doom and extinction.

The miracle of the mountain you wrote of: what year or century did this take place, and does the mountain have a name?

In IC XC
Samer

Shlomo Samer,
You state that

I am happy to tell you that the death of the Suryoyo language is greatly exaggerated. Many members of the Maronite Church are now learning Syriac. Further, there are a number of programs here in North America that offer training in the Syriac language. As a matter of fact, Toronto where I live is hosting a Syriac Symposium this month. Here are the details.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

*************************************************
CCCS Symposium II-The Role of the Syriac People in the Translation Movement during the Abbassid Period

Saturday Nov. 23, 2002
University of Toronto: Koffler Institute of Pharmacy Management, 569 Spadina Ave., Auditorium (Room 108)
Regular-$10, Student/Senior-$5, Free for CSSS Members

The Canadian Society for Syriac Studies
Dept. of Near and Mid. East. Civilizations
4 Bancroft Ave.
Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5S 1C1
Tel.-416-978-3184, Fax-416-978-3305,

http://www.scripta-antiqua.org

10:10-10:40 Revisting the Syriac Role the Transmission of Greek Science into Arabic
Prof. George Saliba, New York

10:40-11:10 Syriac Translators of Greek Philosophy in Abbasid Times: Motives and Background
Dr. John Watt, Cardiff

11:10-11:40 The School of Translation of Yahia ibn 'Adi and its role in Transmitting Greek Philosophy and Science
Prof. S.H. Griffith, Washington, D.C.

12:10-12:40 Syriac Translation Techniques in the Abbasid Period and It's Background
Dr. Sebastian Brock, Oxford

12:40-13:10 The Translation Movement In It's Early Abbasid Context
Dr. Lawrence Conrad, Hamburg

13:10-13:40 The Contribution of the Christians in the Transmission of the Greek Heritage During the Abbasid Period
Prof. Samir Khalil Samir, Beirut

Hala feek ya Jean,

I'm glad to hear about it, but as I'm sure you've understood, I am speaking of the vernacular dialect and tongue (not the liturgical "Fushah" Syriani which greatly differs from it) being spoken without interruption in communities, which are of course to be found in villages. I have yet to meet a Libn"ii"ni ;-) who could carry on a conversation in Syriani aside from monks. Are you Lebanese yourself, khay'yee?

Even if people are learning Syriani in the schools, it isn't exactly identical to listening to the spontaneous Aramaic spoken by Ma'loula villagers, born and bred on the language.

Still, I am happy to see that it is being taught and that in some way keeps it afloat.

I will contend I had the pleasure of meeting in Jordan an Iraqi (hailing from a Syriac church tradition, it seemed) in his old age at the Melkite parish. I started talking with him, and he was telling me with nary a pause of how he had taken it up to himself to learn the language, and started tracing Syriac letters on the church wall, trying to demonstrate its simliarity with Arabic.

In IC XC
Samer

Dear Samer,

Sorry, I come here every once in awhile and didn't see your response!

Yes, it's survival, noshkor Rabbena is truly a miracle. For centuries it was spoken during the LIturgies in hush-hush if at all. As such, there are two dialects of Coptic - Sahidic and Bohairic. If I'm not confused right now, Bohairic is the original, Sahidic is the revived version from Pope Cyril IV.

I haven't seen that musalsal, actually. In Egypt there are certain regions in Upper Egypt, mostly rural areas, in which the "J" is used. Where I come from, for example, you'll find an equal split. One of our Bishops in Mallawi (Upper Egypt) taught huge numbers of youth Coptic to the degree where they could conversed very naturally using it. The Muslims at their universities were less than pleased.

The mountain is appropriately named (by both the Muslims and the Copts), "Mokattam" - the broken mountain. This took place under Pope Abraam (who was actually Syrian). The miracle took place in 979 A.D. Pope Abraam sat on the throne of St. Mark from 975-979 A.D.

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Fortunatus
Amen, maranatha!

I forgot to mention, some of the rural communities in Egypt, the "fellaheen" also managed to keep the language, and still harvest according to the Coptic calendar!

Dear Friends,

I wanted to say that this is all "Greek" to me, but . . .

Alex

Alex, Alex, Alex...tssk tssk. And I thought you were our honorary Oriental.

Not "GREEK" to you... COPTIC to you!

Peace and grace.
Agape,
fortunatus
amen, maranatha!

Dear Mina,

Yes, that's why I said, "But . . ."

I knew I couldn't in this concerted Coptic context!

Alex

Ahh...i'm having trouble reading. I also misread Sam's statement - he was saying exactly as what I was correcting it to say! Sorry ya akhwatee! Akhtet haloolee! (Sorry my brothers, I have sinned absolve me!)

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Fortunatus
Amen, maranatha!

Dear Mina the Forgiven,

Speaking of which, what does Confession "look like" in the Coptic tradition?

Alex

Confession in our church is very intimate. It usually takes place in the church itself or in the priest's office. We have no screen barriers or anything like that. Usually the person sits beside the priest (some kneel for their whole confession while sitting next to the priest). Then the person goes through their sins (many people have the practice of writing them down when they do them, so as not to forget them). Sins are usually divided up into categories: Sins against God, sins against my neigbours - or going by each of the Ten Commandments is helpful (since it automatically divides them up). The priest listens attentively, may pause to advise, scold, comment, request more information etc... Often the priest will converse with the person about their spiritual progress, with specific sins that he has noticed the person becoming attached to...also, if one has questions to be answered, maritaly family problems etc..or wants general advice about things...the person can ask the priest or "complain" during this time. I've noticed that our priests in the lands of immigration aren't just priests, the culture shock for the older congregation and the gap between soem youth and thier parents has forced the priest into a type of Rennaissance Man. It doesn't surprise me that virtually all of our priests are highly educated with university degrees.

Anyway, after that is over, the confessor is supposed to kneel in front of the priest for the Absolution (this is done so much less here in the West, I think). THe confessor should pray Psalm 51 and another prayer before the absolution, the other prayer is, Loose, remit and forgive us, O God, our inquities - which we have committed willingly and which we have committed unwillingly; which we have committed knowingly and which we have committed unknowingly. The hidden and the manifest, O Lord, remit unto us." After the Absolution the Lord's prayer is said, and the confessor kisses the cross and hand of the priest and exits.

I forgot to add: we are to have only ONE father of confession, not confess to just any priest. If you change your father of confession, it is advised that you tell your previous old father of confession and explain to him why! I only know of one person who did this.

Sorry for rambling!

Peace and grace.
agape,
Fortunatus
Amen, maranatha!

I think that's a very beautiful way to confess!

When explaining confession, Latin Catholics often say that, besides its sacramental necessity, it increases our humility, but I've always thought, "What's so humbling when there's a screen between you?" I think this way expresses the humility of the confessor much more efficiently.

Personally, at my first confession, even if I choose to be Latin Catholic, I would rather it be face-to-face. G-d knows I need the lesson in humility because sometimes I can't help but feel I'm the best thing since sliced bread.

ChristTeen287

Shepehmot! (thank you!)

Indeed, it is very humbling - especially adding to it the fact that we confess to just one priest. Everytime my Spiritual Father asks me to do something, or take on a specific service, I always wonder, "How can he talk to me after hearing the things I say? How can he put me in this service when he knows that I'm full of myself? Does he know what he is doing?" And that ends up building a strong relationship of love. My father of confession is the first person I contact in any situation, good or bad, he 'raised me', so to speak, in a lot of ways.

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Fortunatus
Amen, maranatha!