www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Tom Friedman Op-Ed in today's NYT

And it is time the Orthodox Catholic Church stopeed being afraid of the term Evangelical and claim it for its won.

Kurt
Orthodox Evangelical Anglican Catholic

Dear Kurt,

I am not afraid of the term "Evangelical" - it belongs to every Orthodox Catholic by right (rite).

I even like "Anglican" and am a member of an Anglican society, as you know.

You know that's not what I meant. I used the term to refer to a narrow (and selective) way of interpreting Scripture and using it to brow-beat other traditions.

My point is that the violent behaviour of members of religions cannot be solely explained by what is or what is not in their particular sacred writings which are always subject to interpretation by the people's lived faith experience in them anyway.

Alex
Evangelical Orthodox Catholic of the Hussite Tradition

(so there!)

Edwin,

If I knew nothing more about the Old Testament than scriptures descriptive of genocide, rape, adultery, fornication, infanticide, treachery,etc., I would have a very low opinion of the first testament of the Catholic Bible. I would have to read and UNDERSTAND the whole Bible before I could possibly form even a tentative conclusion about Christianity.

Isn't it only fair to ask that you do the same with Islam? I mean, the "cut and paste," methods used by the web sites you have provided for this thread do not do justice to this topic.

Insha'a-llah, maybe this web site will help you.

www.aaiil.org [aaiil.org]

Peace!

[ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Abdur,

Excellent point and thank you!

Salaam Alekum!

Alex

Abdur,

Thanks for the website.

Friends,

"Surely, those who (profess to) believe ( in Islam), and those who follow the Jewish faith, the Christians and the Sabians, whosoever (of these truly) believes in Allah and the Last Day and acts righteously shall have their reward with their Lord, and shall have nothing to fear, nor shall they grieve."--Surah 2:62."

All people of faith can cooperate and work deligently together to "repair the earth," as the Jewish mystics write.

By cooperating with one another we bring glory to the Glorious One, our common Lord and Master.

As it is written:

"O people of the Scripture! Let us agree to a proposition common to us both."--Surah 3:64. Salam (Peace)?

Salam is one of the names of God!

Abdur

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur --

I agree that the Qur'an is more 'semitic' than the Christian NT is. The key comparison, ISTM, is that of the life of Christ vs. the life of Mohammed. On the one hand we have a man of peace, advising a radical new morality of turning the other cheek -- a significant break with OT approaches. On the other, we have a man bent on using every available means -- political, military, economic -- to further his new faith and spread it, including armed raids and outright warfare. Yes, the followers of Christ have often made a mockery of their Christian faith -- but in Islam the founder of the religion himself was a violent man, ready to use war and violence to achieve the ends of his new religion. That is a substantial, lasting, significant difference between Christianity and Islam that exists in the realm of the religions themselves, of the faith traditions themselves.

Alex -- I think we're just going to disagree here. The faith of Islam has always been a violent one, from the very beginning, from the time of Mohammed himself. Many American Muslims are completely unrepresentative of this fact, because many of them have become inculturated into the Western way of living, and have adopted a Western worldview at the same time -- relegating their religion, by necessity in this pluralistic society, to a private or family matter. It would be nice if that kind of enlightenment were to happen in the Islamic world 0-- and I think we should do everything we can to help that happen -- but I'm not holding my breath.

Brendan

"So when the sacred months have passed away, slay the unbelievers wherever you may find them, and take them captive and beseige them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor rate, leave their way free to them..." Surah 9:5.

"So when you meet in battle the unbelievers, then smite their necks until you overcome them, and then make them prisoners....." Surah 47:5.

It's also interesting to note that in the index of the most recent edition of the Dawood translation of the Qur'an, there are 16 entries for "killing", 40 entries for "war" and NOT ONE ENTRY FOR "LOVE".

Dear Brendan,

I've always considered you to be an Orthodox Christian Imam, friend . . .

I think we actually don't disagree since you've proven my earlier point.

American Muslims and others living in the West have adopted the contemporary, democratic perspectives within their own religious tradition, something their confreres living elsewhere have yet to do.

But the same is true for Christianity. If religious authorities of all Christian stripes still had the secular power they once had, would we have the democratic state and civil freedoms as we have them today?

Frankly, I don't believe we would.

Religious bureaucratic authoritarianism, of whatever stripe tends to produce an oppressive theocracy based on specific interpretations of religious texts.

I belong to a cultural group which has had years of suffering under formally Catholic and Orthodox regimes. That would have happened regardless of how many texts in their copies of the Gospels spoke of love.

And I do believe you are treating the Koran almost as a lawyer treats legal texts and documents.

In areas of religion and culture, we just can't do that, friend!

But I'll shut up now and let you go to plan your weekend.

Remember that a lot of Canadians are descending down on New York tomorrow to show their solidarity with you guys.

I'm not but I think I will go to New Orleans later on.

I understand that that place can be dangerous around Mardi Gras time . . .

Alex

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Brendan wrote: "I agree that the Qur'an is more 'semitic' than the Christian NT is."

How so, my friend?

Do you know of any Apostles, church leaders, and Evangelists, and other NT authors who were NOT semitic?

"So when the sacred months have passed away, slay the unbelievers wherever you may find them, and take them captive and beseige them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor rate, leave their way free to them..." Surah 9:5.

"So when you meet in battle the unbelievers, then smite their necks until you overcome them, and then make them prisoners....." Surah 47:5.

It's also interesting to note that in the index of the most recent edition of the Dawood translation of the Qur'an, there are 16 entries for "killing", 40 entries for "war" and NOT ONE ENTRY FOR "LOVE".[/QB][/QUOTE]

Brenden,

I agree with you that Islam is a very semitic faith. I also believe that Muhammed (PBUH), like Moses, Joshua, Saul, David, and other prophets and messengers of the Torah and Tanahk, was called by God to be the leader of a nation and it was a duty imposed upon Prophet Muhammed (PBUH), by Allah, to secure the safety and perpetuity of that community in order to complete the Divine Plan and Dispensation of Islam.

It is the nature of nations that sometimes we are forced to go to war, and in self-defense, to ensure peace. The martial spirit has been implanted within us by our Creator for our own survival.

Christendom recognizes this eternal truth and has never denied (at least since Constantine) the natural right of nations and individuals to defend themselves against aggression. The obvious difference between our two communities is that defensive war and what is permitted and prohibited for Muslims engaged in defensive war is enshrined within our Holy Quran, whereas for Christians it is recorded in your customs and enshrined within your history.

It was the will of Allah that the early Muslims suffer passively under the brutal opposition and persecution of their pagan foes. We know that many pagans opened their hearts to the message of Islam as they were witnesses to the courage and steadfastness of the early and persecuted Muslim community. And so the work of God is done according to His will.

But, in time, Allah decreed:

"Permission to fight in self-defense is given to those Muslims against whom war is waged for no reason, for they have been done injustice to, and Allah has indeed might and power to help them;
Those who have been driven out of their homes without any just cause. Their only fault was that they said, 'Our Lord is Allah.' If Allah had not repelled some peoples by means of others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques wherein the name of Allah is mentioned, would have been razed to the ground in large numbers. And Allah will surely help those who help His Cause."--Quran 22:39-40.

Islam recognizes, as do most religions and civilizations, that "Killing is bad, but lawlessness is even worse than carnage."--Surah 2:191.

Absence of love in the Quran?

No sacred scripture mentions love more often than the Quran for each chapter begins,

"With the Name of Allah,
the Most Gracious and Compassionate,
the Ever Merciful."

Salam,

Abdur

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

That may be, Abdur, but my serious question is this: Christianity may well be an offshoot of Old Testament Judaism, but the teachings of Christ, STRICTLY interpreted, do not allow the use of violence in any way. Peter was told to put away his sword. The Lord said to 'turn the other cheek' and to forgive 'not seven times but seventy times seven'.

The earliest Christians were communal and shared all things in common; they were also strict pacifists in the sure belief that being killed by those that hated them would earn them a place in heaven. (Read the "Acta Martyrorum")

The very fact that the Koran could tell folks that killing was sometimes possible is a direct and unequivocal rejection of the teachings of Christ. It does fit in with the Old Testament Jewish concept of who God is and how God would advise the Jews to act -- i.e., smashing babies heads, etc.

As quoted above:

"But, in time, Allah decreed:

'Permission to fight in self-defense is given to those Muslims against whom war is waged for no reason, for they have been done injustice to, and Allah has indeed might and power to help them;
Those who have been driven out of their homes without any just cause. There [sic] only fault was that they said, 'Our Lord is Allah.' If Allah had not repelled some peoples by means of others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques wherein the name of Allah is mentioned, would have been razed to the ground in large numbers. And Allah will surely help those who help His Cause."--Quran 22:39-40.

Islam recognizes, as do most religions and civilizations, that "Killing is bad, but lawlessness is even worse than carnage."--Surah 2:191. [Sure, but who's law?]

Absence of love in the Quran?

No sacred scripture mentions love more often than the Quran for each chapter begins,

"With the Name of Allah,
the Most Gracious and Compassionate,
the Ever Merciful."


Hmmm. Love is not mentioned there at all. And secondly, if the "faithful" are allowed to rise up in righteous indignation and homicide when their rights are violated, then my question is: who makes the decision about "violation"? It seems that this is the loophole through which Osama bin Laden and his homicidal cronies are operating. But for Christians: NO homicide is allowed. Period. So, where's the commonality and the historical connectivity with "the people of the book"?

I agree that most Moslems are peaceful and kind to their neighbors. But when the community/society is mostly Moslem, then the theology of Islam appears to allow several types of persecution. Thus, Moslems in the U.S. are generally accepting of pluralism and 'live and let live'. [I live in a condo complex that is more than 1/3 Moslem. We've got a "Ramadan Mubarak" sign in the lobby right next to the Christmas tree.] But in Syria, Iraq, Saudia Arabia, Egypt, etc., Christians had better keep their heads down otherwise the churches will be torn down for being "too close to a mosque" (Egypt), or Christians will be branded "potential enemies of the state" (Iraq), or just dangerous (Syria). (And, to tell the truth, the Israelis aren't much better.)

So, my general perspective as an American (but also as a diplomaed theologian with Greek roots), is to accept my Mohammedan neighbors in the US, but I would never allow myself or my family to live in a Moslem-dominated society because while our theology does NOT permit persecution of anyone (Christ said so), Moslem theology allows me (or us) to become a target for persecution or death if some crazy decides I'm a targeted infidel.

So, I think that many of my Western Christian brethren are correct in accepting Islamics in a Christlike manner, but they are incredibly ill-informed about Islam. We Eastern Christians will be kind and gracious, but will keep a 0.38 under the pillow -- just in case. The Westerns don't know Islam except in the pluralist Western concept where we're all living together but in a Christian (or at least "post-Christian") society. However, we Easterns have lived with Mohammedans and their "theology" and have a totally different point of view. When a Greek Orthodox Patriarch (Georgios) can be hanged from the gate in Constantinople because someone committed an offense against the Moslem authority, or when Greeks and Armenians are driven into the sea in Smyrna because they weren't Moslem, then I too will keep armor. And will use it. I regret the fact that we do not have Armenian brethren who post here. Let THEM tell you about Islamic "peace" -- three million murdered in 1919 and 1920.

We do the 'holocaust' thing for the WWII Jews; but conveniently forget about the 3 million murdered Armenians; and the untold millions of Christians of Ukraine and elsewhere in Eastern Europe and Central Europe murdered by Stalin and Hitler. It's about time we learned a little history and learned where our current true problems lie. And prepared to deal with them. While as Christians, we must be prepared to lay down our lives for our faith, this does not mean that we must allow innocent people and children to be murdered while we stand by doing nothing.

Blessings!

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Dr John ]

Dr. John,

Our theologies might seem to be very different, even though the Quran would argue that they are not. I believe the Quran is correct.

I can understand your emotional reaction to my post. But I must say that it is biased, even if it accurately depicts the current state of Arabic Muslims societies, and particularly the martial excesses and barbarism of the Turks.

However, painting the whole Muslim world in a swath of blood and gore is as an inaccurate description of reality as characterizing the Catholic Church as the slaughter- house of innocents that many historians contend it is.

The terrible reality is that Catholics, for centuries, were the scourge of those who dissented from the teachings of the Catholic Church. Some Catholics desperately try to deny that reality (just as Turks deny the Armenian genocide), but it is not easy to wash the blood away in the presence of the facts. And, I am afraid, if we are counting, the numbers slaughtered in the name of God by Catholics (who distorted the teachings of Jesus just as Muslims have distorted and continue to distort the teachings of Mohammed), would number in the millions.

However, that is the sin of Catholics; not the essence of Catholicism.

But as emotional and painful as reality may be, the facts remain: wherever Catholic armies made their way, whether in Europe, the Balkans, Asia, Africa, the Middle East, or South America, their appetite for blood seemed to be insatiable. These are the very uncomfortable facts, and they are stubborn facts that will not fade away into a dark niche of history.

The same can be said for the armies of Islam; and Muslims must accept the reality of our historical culpability in the slaughter of innocents.

The reality is: All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The sooner we recognize that fact, the sooner we can begin to live our faiths in the present tense sans our bloody histories with a commitment to never again repeat the barbarity of the past.

God does not force us to live in the past.

Ben Ladin? Is he representative of Muslims? Certainly, the Muslims who are fighting against him would say, emphatically: No!

Stalin was Orthodox and Hitler was Catholic. Were they representative of their respective religions? Never let such a blasphemy be uttered.

There is no rationalization for his brutal distortions of the teachings of Islam. The very Quran he quotes refutes his arguments. He is a heretic and criminal who has sentenced himself to death. He, like the barbaric Crusaders, is as much a blot on Islam as the Crusaders were to Catholicism.

No love?

In the Arabic language, compassion and mercy represent the hightest expressions of love. With all due respect, we are not obligated to define or express ourselves according to the linguistic norms of others.

I know the Quran and I know our sacred traditions and the teachings of the Sufi fathers. Islam, like God, is love.

"In the name of God, the Compassionate and the Merciful... ."

That, friend, is a deep expression of love.

Salam, Pax, Mir, and Irenee,

Abdur

BTW Dr. John:

The Greeks and Armenians of Smyrna were "driven into the sea" by a Turkish regime that was overtly secular and nationalistic. The Young Turks, including their leader Attaturk, despised all religion and persecuted their own Muslim people.

Millions of Greek-Turkish Muslims were also brutally driven out of Greece, where they had established communities that were hundreds of years old. Many of them were the descendents of Greek Christians and their ancestors had never known any other homeland but Greece. Just like their Greek Orthodox counterparts in Anatolia they lost everything, from farms, businesses, to their dignity, even their lives or the lives of their loved ones.

Using your line of logic, am I to assume that they were the victims of (1) Greek Orthodox Christian barbarity, or (2) Greek nationalism and extreme xenophobia equivalent to that of the secular Turks?

Of related historical and contemporary interest:

Bosnia: Can you blame history?

www.megastories.com/bosnia/history/history.htm [megastories.com]

Persecution of the Mudejar (or ethnic Spanish Muslims.)

http://lilt.ilstu.edu/bekurtz/mudejareb.htm

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Abdur,

I beg to differ. The expression of love by the word "al mahab'bah" is not some alien linguistic norm in the least. I gather from your username that you are Eastern European. As an Arab myself, I am more than hypersensitive to the nuances in our exceptionally poetic tongue.

You are correct that "ar'rahmaan ur'raheem" is a powerful expression. "Al-mahab'ba" though, I see as carrying far stronger weight, both in meaning and in beauty of pronunciation, as indicated by the words of the Master, "Ahib'bu ba'dakum ba'dan kam'ma ana ahbabtukum". I find more intimacy in this choice of words, than in beautiful and powerful expressions of praise such as "ya ghafoor" or "ya arhamur rahemeen". Majestic yes, but lacking in a certain kind of intimacy.

I also would point out the immortal Jubran Khalil Jubran's philosophy on love in "the Prophet". Written in English yes, but translated into Arabic as well and put into song (sung by the magnificent lady Fairuz). "Al-mahab'ba" is anything but an alien linguistic norm not in concord with Arabic expression. In fact Jubran personifies love tremendously well.

Finally, the title we love to enshrine the Master with, "ya muhib'bal bashar" (Lover of Mankind). It may also connote to some extent benevolent compassion, though the word "Rah'maan" indicates this more so.

Islam in its addresses to God, speaks with a heavy OT accent, the God we can not touch or grasp. The deep bond that is reached as God becomes flesh is not illustrated, as Islam does not proclaim "Allah ur'rab qad thaharaa lanaa"

But I should give credit where credit is due. One beautiful phrase in Islam (which my mother understandably loves) "Aj'jan'natu tahta aqdaamil um'mahaat."

In IC XC
Samer

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: SamB ]

Salam Alikum be ism Yasou al-Maseeh,

The atrocities committed in the name of Islam or the Roman Catholic or Protestant Churches are too many to be named. This should not be the focus of the topic. The topic should be begging the question as to what fuels acts of religious wars and to what degree are scriptures of a religious body held responsible? We need to critical examine the religious texts and the impact that they have on a body of believers.

The New Testament does not prescribe or sanctions "Just Wars". In fact, Holy Tradition & the early Church Fathers were against any form of transgressions against anyone. Reading the Philokalia, the bible of Orthodox spirituality, is nearly enough to prove the essence of true, loving Christianity. The Old Testament does speak of God punishing and even killing. We all know what God All-Mighty is capable of doing if it is His desire. Our God works in mysterious ways to fulfill His desires and what is best for us. Death is best for us but it is not to be inflicted or instigated by any of us. We certainly can do our best to prevent killers from killing again but in the end we will all die in God's time. As for those who died in the Old Testament by acts of God this should serve as a reminder of God's wrath, not our wrath, for not being in obedience to His will. Acts of God continue to take place in our day and age. However, we should not pretend that we are God by inflicting harm on one another.

In Islam, the Quran and the Hadiths can go on and on about killing the unbelievers, acting in defense, labeling non-Muslims as losers, etc. No one can deny that the Quran and the Hadiths speak at times about God's mercy, compassion, peace and love. However, there is no hiearchy in Islam to guide and explain the above-mentioned discrepancies. Every Muslim belongs to various madaris (schools) of interpretation. These schools get even more defragmented to the point every Muslim is his own "scholar" or "interpreter" which by the way is quite similiar to Protestantism in general. If a Muslim is not content with a particular interpretation of the Quran he creates what is acceptable to him and with other like-minded Muslims. Again, another interesting similiarity with Protestantism. What this boils down to is that man has become his own guide & interpretator into the reading of his scriptures.
Islam and Protestantism share common characteristics:
1)Both believe that their scriptures are sole authority. They believe that the Quran and the Bible is the final authority on how they govern and pattern their lifestyles in accordance to their tradition.
2)Both interpret their scriptures without a hiearch(i.e. Episcopal authority) and are open to accepting and altering interpretations.
3)Both ignore the history of the Orthodox Catholic Church and constantly refer the Bible or the Quran as their history.
4)Both do not have Apostolic Succession due to #2

As everyone can see & read, there are no injuctions in the New Testament to kill the unbelievers and make false, unfounded accusation about the Torah or about itself or even against another religion. The Quran speaks with a definitive authority and attacks anyone that does not accept its message. The Muslim mindset believes that the Quran is God's speech(Word). In fact, Muslims believe that the Quran is the Uncreated Word of God! The understanding of the "uncreated Word of God" is what Christianity has been saying about Jesus Christ all along. Muslims believe that God had come in the form of a book, Quran. Whereas for Christians, God became man. The Quran even refers to Christ as the Word of God! But Muslims deny this interpretation. From my own personal experience, Muslims have a narrow tunnel vision like so many fundamentalist Christians that the Quran is the beginning and the end of the road for them. There is no critical examination of the history and origin of the Quran let alone an original manuscript.

In summary, for a book like the Quran to declare war for any reason that suits the taste of any Muslim is warning to all mankind. It's kind of ironic for a book such as the Quran to literally speak to anyone and to fulfill its words of commands. I do not know of any religion in the world where a book does speak of slaying another people or speaking evil of them but only in the Quran. This is the greatest cult on the face of the earth. It manipulates & incorporates the Judeo-Christian heritage and truths and has a remedy for dealing with non-believers, violently and non-violently. Reformulating & revising Judeo-Christian truths in conjunction with a warrior's lifestyle is the creation of Islam.

I ran across an article from the Jordan Times http://www.jordantimes.com/Tue/news/news8.htm

It's very interesting to note that this Crown Prince claims that his country is truly living the Islamic way in the whole, entire world. This does not say much for other Islamic nations.
Here is a quote
�I am certain that there is no other country in the world that is implementing Islam. This is a cause for pride. We, God willing, will live and die while adhering to this faith, and implementing its rules,� he said, quoted by the official Saudi Press Agency.

But then you have other Muslims that will disagree with him. Why? He does speak from the heart of Islam where Islam is the way of life according to the Sharia. Other Muslims believe that their way of life is Islamic. Don't worry, there is enough room for confusion as to what Islam really is. Confusion is the best strategy afforded by Shaitan in order to protect & promote Islam. No wonder in the West people do not know what the hell to believe. I think the greatest example of what Islam is really like is in the life of Saudia Arabia inspite of other Islamic nations. The sword on their flag tells it all.
Remember the Crown Prince said implementing Islam is the cause of pride? Pride is & will be the downfall of Islam since it is an attribute of the Shaitan(Devil). Islam and the writings of the Quran does pride itself despite what anyone says.

Salam Alikum
P.S. everyone please read 2Peter 2:1-3
"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, EVEN DENYING THE LORD who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. BY COVETOUSNESS THEY WILL EXPLOIT YOU WITH DECEPTIVE WORDS; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber."