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As we have just celebrated the Feast of Pentecost, may the Holy Spirit move through both Cathoic and Orthodox circles, as we have a bigger problem , once again, as in centuries past, looming on the ever so closer horizon, namely the Fundamentalist Muslim. Russia conquered them once, and placed their "crescent" at the bottom of the cross where it belongs again. Imagine the spiritual "force" that would be with us Obiwhan!!!
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Dear OOD, Didn't you ask a while ago if you could participate in this thread? And didn't I say you couldn't?  Alex
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Dear Friends, I am getting a sense here that union with Rome does indeed go beyond the simple dogmatic side of the issue. For me, it truly does involve a way to have a more universalist perspective that transcends one's local cultural/religious boundaries. Don't get me wrong. I love my Church and culture And so, apparently, does the Pope! But the Pope being Polish and Latin Catholic doesn't prevent him from fully relating himself to Christians in Africa or Latin America, or anywhere else. It is this universality and unity that transcends our man-made borders that makes being in "union with Rome" so attractive. As for Latinizations, many are also practiced within Orthodoxy. As for jurisdictional bullying, a lot of that is because our own bishops can't stand on their own two feet. As for other things, they do not make a movement to separate from Rome. The fact that we keep on fightin' for our rites means that we will remain rough and tough. And to those who think I'm a real Papalist, I just want to say I don't know where you get that. Alex Given under my hand in the 24th year of the Pontificate of His Holiness Pope John Paul II, Vicar of Christ, Successor to St Peter the Apostle, Bishop of Rome, Metropolitan-Archbishop of the Province of Rome, Primate of Italy, Patriarch of the West, Sovereign Pontiff of the Universal Church, Servant of the Servants of God.
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AlexTheGreat: You OrthodoxCatholics always mess up! It's "Supreme (not Sovereign) Pontiff of the Universal Church." And you forgot one other title of His Holiness: [i]Sovereign of Vatican City State[i/].  AmdG
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Dear Amado, Would you believe me if I told you I deliberately made those errors to see who would correct me? No? Oh well . . . Alex
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I thought it was "Sovereign Pontiff"? I have never heard him referred to as the "Supreme Pontiff."
Dmitri
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Dear Dmitri, If we don't humour him a bit, we're gonna get into trouble . But he's right! Alex
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Originally posted by greekcatholic:
Hundreds of children making their First Communions, (what do our little tikes do now...no First Communion pictures, parties, or gifts with the "new way").
Although, this may diverge from the topic a bit, I hope you are not advocating a restoration of the "old way". Pictures, parties, and gifts are hardly an apologetic for "excommunicating" infants from the Eucharist.
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Dear Bisantino,
What my parish does is hold a "First Confession and Holy Communion" when the kiddies reach the age of 7.
They receive prayer ropes and Byzantine prayer books.
The fanfare is identical to that of "First Holy Communion" but without the unnecessary witholding of Communion from pre-age 7 children.
Alex
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Dmitri: You haven't heard the Pope being addressed to as the " Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church" because it is rarely used. (Actually, only die-hard Roman Catholics like me love hearing and reading it.) The last time I heard (actually read) it used was by Rev. Billy Graham, of that Protestant evangelical fame, when he visited with His Holiness in the Vatican in 1998, I think. It was in the spirit of humor, as Alex correctly observed, that I chimed in on the "numerous" titles ascribed to our Holy Father (that's another one!).  Would you not find it funny yourself? If this myriad of titles were translated into earned or honorific degrees, like Ph.D., M.A., B.S., and the like, before long the Pope shall have more degrees than the thermometer!  AmdG
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Originally posted by greekcatholic:
The "Golden Years" are more than just a time when we seemed to know who we were, and were happy being Greek Catholics, because there were Roman Catholics, the "Katsaps" (those churhces who went orthodox during the celibacy and church ownership issues) , the Johnstown Group, etc. The golden years were years when cantors were a full time job, and many were called "professor", and were salaried by the church. I have heard from many other parishioners that even the congragational singing of the liturgy in many of our bigger churches up North is waning. If you want to hear some real congregational singing to compare, get a tape of the Episcopal Consecration of Bishop Kocisko back in 1965 at the Cathedral in Passaic. The mixture of Old Slavonic and English, with the babi raising the roof is a joy to listen to(especially the closing hymn "O Maria Mati Boze") as are the priests, many of whom are no longer with us, like Stim, Durisin, Kocisko, and others. The tape is no longer in publication, so I made copies for friends. Email me if you want one. It's a classic example of the "Golden Years". We can talk about icon screens, rubrics, new liturgy, rapidia flappping, doors opening and closing, and incense billowing, which is all wonderful, but it's the "singing stupid" (to coin a phrase of the Clinton years) that needs to be addressed perhaps in another post. If we lose that, then send in the organs, guitars, or try to muster a choir. I remember Bishop Kocisko insisted no choir be used during any of his celebrations. He wanted congregational singing, which we Greek Catholics/Ruthenians have mastered better than the Ukranians and Orthodox who depended, I think, too much on choral music rendered by choirs while the people just listened, hummed, or sang under their breath. Our plain chant and Tonal system used for our liturgical services is integral to our church. It needs to be reinvigorated in all parishes. Greek Catholic I just recieved the tape in the mail today and I can personally say after litening to it that that is some very fine choral music. I urge anyone who is truly interested in hearing something from the golden age of Greek Catholics in America to try and get GC to send you a copy of this magnificant tape! The singing was truly superb and sadly brings tears to your eyes (Could we Byzantine Catholics ever have such beautiful singing in our parishes again)? So I again than Greek Catholic from the bottom of my heart for making this wonderful music available to me and hopefuly some of you will be able to get a copy as well for some truly uplifting choral. Robert K.
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"Which we have mastered better"? I don't think so. Nearly all Ukrainian Catholic parishes I have visited or cantored for naturally know how to harmonize the liturgy, not just sing it monotine like nearly all the Ruthenian parishes I have visited. There is general agreement amongst the Ukrainian parishes in the Galician resurrectional tones, while I have not had two cantors teach me Prostopinje tones the same way.
Even the Vespers books produced by the Sisters of St. Basil in Uniontown, the primary Vespers text in use in the Ruthenian parishes (of which few actually use them) have the stikera edited for singing in Ukrainian/Galician samohlasni, not the Prostopinje podobny. I don't think you can say that one jurisdiction has "mastered" anything better than the other. And the use of choral music - there are wonderful traditional choral settings out there, Bortnyansky, Fedoriv, and many others - that are beautiful pieces. There are many more recent recordings of liturgical music that are beautiful, also, including the Ruthenian choir in Philadelphia which has recorded both Slavonic and English Divine Liturgies.
If these were the golden years, what happened? Became so latinized they just went to the Latin church? ...you shall know them by their fruits
Subdeacon Randolph, a sinner
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Friends,
Problems with married priests, jurisdictional bullying by Rome, Latinization - we've all heard the usual litany of issues.
So, why do Byzantine Catholics stay in union with Rome? Why do we remain Catholic?
Is it only because we are gluttons for punishment?
Alex
(I love it when questions are simple.) Because Christ appointed the Chair of Peter to head His Church, and because I do not base my judgment of Christ's action (that appointment) nor my church on the shallowness of newspaper reporter's opinions. Jesus never promised that all member of the Church would be sinless... he simply told me that I should be. What is my church? newspapers and reporters? or Catholic and Christ? One will aide my salvation and the other wants to sell more papers and air time. My choice is clear. [ 05-26-2002: Message edited by: -ray ]
-ray
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
So, why do Byzantine Catholics stay in union with Rome? Why do we remain Catholic? I had already posted my short opinion on this� but today, I found myself thinking more on it during prayer. I have to say, that reality - is a powerful thing. History could have just as well turned out - that today.. We did not believe in any type of �god� at all. Communism could have swept the world and religion faded away. Imagine if magic and superstition held sway? Imagine if technology replaced God altogether? But these things, all just as good �could have been� did not take place. Instead� a carpenter from Galilee was the cause of the spread of a belief in a �son of god� to most of the world, and for over 2000 years! While only about one third of the cultures call themselves Christian - I doubt there is any pocket left in the world where the name of this crucified Jesus Christ - is not known in someway. At least as a teacher of morals. What a miracle has been preformed through history! What were the odds that this little Jewish cult.. where their leader WANTED to die because his father had laid it upon him� ? What would be the odds that the name �Jesus Christ� would be known in someway around the world one day - what the odds of that taking place??? And, as far as men, we owe it all to the 12, who, against all odds, knowing they would probably be killed for doing it - established a church, a Catholic church with one of them in a Prime Ministerial role - and even despite all the faults and failings and down right sins of its members - HAS carried the gospel though out time and history to this day. The Catholic Church with Peter as it head - is the original church. The mother church. All other Christian churches, including the Orthodox, have split and branched off from the original Catholic Church - which still exists today. It is for the sins, perhaps, of the members of the Catholic Church - that other churches have separated from her formally - yet remain united to her (despite public split) in the foundation and basics of the original doctrines and beliefs that she had codified. Without her (the Catholic Church) no other Christian church would have existed. All other Christian churches compare themselves to her. Either they glory in that they are united to her in some way - or glory in the fact that they are NOT like her. In either case - she is their roots and I dare say that if the Catholic Church ever went away - all other Christian Churches would blow away like dries leaves with the dust - because they no longer had roots to sustain them. History - proves what I said. Imagination can refute it but that refute remains ungrounded, unreal, and denies the facts of history and the path that Providence has accomplished. Popular or not. Loved or hated. The Catholic Church was begun by Christ and remains to this day with its full human unity in Peter (despite his own personal sins).
-ray
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