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Can anyone tell something about the Orthodox belief on "Toll houses"?I have heard that it is an Orthodox version of purgatory.
Thanks

Because I cannot find unanimity on the Orthodox teaching on "toll houses," I personally believe that the toll houses are an allegory of what happens on *this* side of the "Great Divide" between life and death and *not* a teaching similar to the Latin teaching of Purgatory. If it is, then an uderstanding of Purgatory occuring immediately prior to one's repose would be the closest proximation in the teaching.

OrthodoxEast

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him Forever!

I read about the toll houses in Fr. Seraphim Rose's (memory eternal!) book "The Soul after death." I'm convinced that they are real.

He addressed the idea that the toll houses are an Orthodox concept of purgatory. He said that the West has never said that demons do the tormenting in purgatory, demons are involved in the toll houses.

Now if you want a real Orthodox "purgatory" take the belief of the Orthodox that a soul still needing purification from sin must go into hell for a time until it is released by the prayers and liturgies of the Church.

Adam

nice choice for an icon Theosis

The Roman Catholic doctrine is interested in defining a final purgation that may be needed for the person (after physical death) before complete union with God. In as much as what may remain in us (heart and mind) of sin can not have union with God. The thought is that that those who die (but will not be sent to hell by the final judgment of them) may require a final purgation of their spirit (mind and heart) before union with God. Rather than defining a �place� or a condition, action, or state - that only takes place at one moment (after death and before union with God) the RC it is rather saying that - a final purgation from sin must take place, after physical death, for those who will be united to God. That would be the simple way to put it. This final purgation is called �Purgatory� in as much as it is the actions of purgation at that juncture (not a place where it takes place). That is about it for the official doctrine. It is limited to the final purgation of sin after death and before total union with God.

In Roman Catholic theological extension, Purgatory (the action of a final purgation) may also take place before physical death. Those who obtain the Mystical Union or Mystical Marriage - can only obtain the marriage union with God after a final purgation of serious sin and almost(?) all minor sin. One would have to understand the Mystical Union. So in that sense, a person can go through Purgatory (final purgation) before physical death - but this has not been defined one way or the other by the Church and does not need to be. It has certainly been written about by the Doctors of the Church (Roman Catholic).

Both Eastern and Western Catholic theology recognize three stages to spiritual growth.

1) Purgation.
2) Illumination
3) Unitive

Purgation - The action of role of being purged from sin and its effects .
Illumination - The action of God enlighten the mind and heart of the soul.
Unitive - The final stage which stage culminates in the Mystical Marriage.

Is the Mystical Marriage the filnal stage of the Unitive stage or is it a 'fourth' stage? No one is clear and it is probably that it is - both - in a way.

The three stages are viewed in a two fold way. That is - that not only can it be recognized that a person will progress through the three stages during his life (on the way to mystical union while still here) - but these three stages are also present in a �local� way - that is that there is a cycle of purgation, illumination and union that takes place several times within the overall life span and big picture and things hift around (for example - within the Unitive satge there is a very intense purgation of the spirit (the mind) in which the person is left with only the darkness of faith - much darker than had ever taken place in the Purgative stage which takes place mostly in the senses and what we can call the lower parts of the mind).

It is clear from the many spiritual writers that they want to give a bit of a road map but do not want to give a 'formula' (like Alchemy did).

The stages are named for their predominance. Which means that in the first stage (let us say that someone experiences a conversion from a materialistic life style to a Christian life style) the predominate action is a purge from sin and sinful ways (the person turns to God and ceases materialistic ways and begins a spiritual life). In several years time the person enters the illuminative stage where (the major purgation now behind him) he will receive illumination of the mind regarding such things as truth, reality and church doctrine. In several years more time (if he is true to the purgation and illumination he has received) he enters into the Unitive stage - or the Mystical Marriage.

Anywhere along the way there are �smaller� cycles - that is that the person is purged of some particular sin or sinful attitude (and no purgation is enjoyable) and on the heels of that he receives some particular illumination - which illumination is followed by a sense of union with God.

The idea of �purgation� is not simply one of �the person decides to cease sin� in some particular area. That is �asetics� - which is a voluntary cease of our willing cooperation with habitual movements of particular and habitual sin. Purgation is rather than something we do - it is something that God does through the use of Providential events and circumstances and grace - the sin and most of our tendency to a particular sin - is removed. This is why those who think of the church and her ceremonies and such as a means of therapy and behavioral modification are so often disappointed and moving from church to church. Ascetics is what we do to cease a willing cooperation with sin - but sin and its tendencies and effects are not removed by it. The removal is done through providential events (a purgation) combined with grace.

Purgatory (sounding like a place) would probably be better served today by the words �Final Purgation� and will be needed by anyone who has not reached Mystic Union before death - and - will not be judged to hell (total lose of God).

The main working area of purgation - is the memory and senses. The main working area of illumination is the spirit or mind - and the main area of union is the intellect (full knowledge of your own immediate and intimate union with God).

In this way - there is harmony between the Eastern concept of Toll Houses (which concept is also not limited to an after death experience but can also describe a continued events of purgation in this life). Purgation is thought of a �making payment� in as much as the �payment� is actually a repair of the damage done to our own soul when we sin. The �payment� is our own suffering while the repair is being done although there is nothing about suffering that God desires of us - it is accidental to the repair and more connected to how reluctant we are to giving up our sinful ways and habits.

Saints who have recognized the experiential value of purgation (the following illumination and moments of union) have often expressed a joy in suffering and have (for a time) wanted to suffer! But after more spiritual growth came to recognize that suffering itself has no value - it is merely an accidental to purgation (in other words our own reaction connected to our own voluntary attachment for habits of sin).

The Hebrew concept is the same (under their own words of course). Where �shela� (a concept of suffering under the hot noonday sun) is a purgation from sin and its effects . The concept is a spiritual comparison to being �laid low in the dry dust� and suffering under the heat of the desert sun. The prophetic picture is one of a metal smith heating the silver in his furnace until it has become molten enough and heated enough to burn of the impurities.

And scripture has spoken often of prayer and vows and actions by the living which bring comfort to those who have died - asking grace from God for those who are in purgation.


Your own thoughts�
Because I cannot find unanimity on the Orthodox teaching on "toll houses," I personally believe that the toll houses are an allegory of what happens on *this* side of the "Great Divide" between life and death and *not* a teaching similar to the Latin teaching of Purgatory. If it is, then an uderstanding of Purgatory occuring immediately prior to one's repose would be the closest proximation in the teaching.

OrthodoxEast

are very insightful and apply to the Toll House just as well as to Purgatory (which has been officially defined as the final purgation - but does not limit the actions of the final purgation to after death only).

Just a discussion. I am not a theologian.

The Orthodox priests I know (and they are solidly Orthodox) have denounced the toll house myth as heresy, as baggage of those inclined to gnosticism. There is no purgatory in the Eastern Orthodox faith. I would question the person who posted that the Orthodox believe a soul still needing purification goes to hell temporarily. I have never, ever heard such a thing before.

From what I understand, it is unhealthy to speculate on death too much. All we need to know is that if we believe in Jesus and do our best to serve Him and His Church, we have the hope of being with Him forever. As far as I know, we die, we receive our "personal judgement," in which we have a foretaste of our eternal destiny, and then we have the final judgement. We spend eternity in one place or the other, no pit stops.

Archbishop Lazar Puhalo of Canada (OCA) has written some very excellent books on the Orthodox teaching on the after life, from Synaxis Press, which I highly recommend.

Dear Friends,

Well, St Peter Mohyla of Kyiv in his original Catechism did indeed believe in a Purgatory - he continued even after Orthodoxy expunged this teaching from his document.

While one can say he was under the influence of scholasticism, there is nothing in Orthodoxy that would condemn private belief in Purgatory.

The Orthodox Fathers attending the Council of Florence were actually shocked that the Latins had developed "states" or "Places" after death, including purgatory and limbo.

The question is not whether Purgatory is a state or place or whatever.

Orthodoxy doesn't believe souls are assigned to either heaven or hell in a final way until they are reunited with the body at the Second Coming of Christ.

The process of union with God in Orthodoxy is a dynamic one.

Purgatory suggests that one is purged of one's sins, spiritual debts etc. until one reaches heaven which is where that process stops.

Orthodoxy believes that even the Mother of God and the Saints may have their union with God made all that more perfect through prayer in their honour and for them on earth.

We pray FOR them at each Divine Liturgy, and not only offer it in their honour! (See the prayers of the priest following the Consecration).

The Church prays for the release of a soul from its sins.

St Peter Mohyla said that even when we see someone committing a terrible sin before their death, we must pray to God not to punish them according to their sin, but to release them from punishment.

The Western Catholic categories are "neater" and easier for the mind to grasp which is why they have been more popular.

The Eastern Church would rather bow before mystery than try to engage our feeble rational minds in attempting to understand it.

As for the toll-houses, we really have no idea.

Archbishop Lazar represents one view only and he has been roundly criticized from other Orthodox quarters for his views.

The fact is that the entire system of 40 days' prayer for the dead in Orthodoxy is based on the toll-house vision of St Macarius - so I don't know if we are justified in completely rejecting it.

Alex

Over the past two weeks on the Indiana list, there has been a very lively discussion of the Orthodox perspectives on toll house and the writings of Fr. Seraphim Rose on the subject.

http://listserv.indiana.edu/archives/orthodox.html

Dear djs,

Well, the toll-houses are mentioned liturgically, off and on.

For our friends who may not know what we are talking about, "toll-houses" refers to a view of what happens to the soul immediately following death.

At that point, two angels are said to come to the soul to guard it through what might be described as a "gauntlet" of about twenty or so "toll-houses" that represent the major virtues in life.

As the soul nears one such "toll-house," the demons that are there accuse the soul of the vices that goes against the virtue ie. that it was proud, rather than humble, in life. The soul defends itself, as do the angels. Then the soul goes on to another "toll-house" representing another virtue.

By the end of what is really a horrific process, the soul goes on with the rest of the 40 day period of wandering etc.

The Mother of God herself apparently believed in the toll-houses, if the deuterocanonical tradition is to be believed.

Prior to her Dormition, she asked her Son to come and take her directly to prevent her from being accosted by the demons of the air in the toll-houses.

And her Son granted her her request. This is what we see in the icon of the Dormition, Christ Himself holding the soul of His most Pure Mother in His own Hands, protecting her from the assaults of the demons of the air, of the toll-houses.

Alex

Is there not some kind of Greek/liturgical word for "toll houses"? This phrase makes me think of the Nestle cookies.

ChristTeen287

Yes, ChristTeen, and happy birthday a little late, - it does take a bit of effort to permanently disengage oneself from "my grandmother's nice chocolate chip cookies" to contemplate the serious and solemn process Alex describes well in his post.
I am glad you described it for us, Alex, as even though I knew exactly what this meant and had read of it long ago, it helps to have a really good explanation of it, for I think I had forgotten some of those specifics.
And yes, contemplation of chocolate chip cookies will never be the same again, eh, ChristTeen?
CS (you'll have to forgive the rambling as I must be tired, it is getting late ...)

Dear Friends,

I think the lesson of the toll houses is simply that death is a serious thing that we are to prepare for well and that it involves a struggle.

It is a struggle we are already engaged in - with powers and principalities that go throughout the world seeking the ruination of souls.

But we also have great resources at our disposal to fight the good fight, the Name of Jesus, the power of the Spirit, the intercession of Our Lady and the Saints.

As for the evil ones, we cannot do other than fight them with God's power.

They used to be angels and still have angelic power.

As one Father said, an angel has the power to reduce the world to ashes with a single thought.

Alex

Thanks!

I'm the Damai Lama when it comes to meditation/contemplation of All Things Chocolate.

ChristTeen287

Purgatory is solidly Scriptural, and the early Fathers (both East and West) believed in it, as their writings attest. The Orthodox practice of praying for the dead would also seem to presuppose it -- why pray for people who are already either in heaven or hell?

So, really, this modern Orthodox aversion to purgatory simply baffles me. Like so many things in modern (as opposed to traditional) Orthodoxy, it just seems like an over-reaction against Rome. It's like: "The Catholics believe this so we can't -- even though it's part of our own tradition!"

Seems self-defeating to me.

Blessings,

Diane

P.S. Loads of canonized saints and mystics have had the privilege of seeing Purgatory in highly detailed visions, BTW....

In the 18th prayer before Holy Communion according to the Old Rite, our holy father Germanus of Jerusalem asks the All-Holy Mother of God to free us from the aerial toll-houses. I'll stick to listening to the Holy Fathers rather than some of the priests of today, who ridicule not only the toll-houses but also righteous men such as Hieromonk Seraphim of Platina by throwing in the word gnostic.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.