www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Toll Houses

Dear Diane,

"Purgatory" is nowhere mentioned in the Scriptures and it is foreign to the early Church Fathers, East and West.

It is a much later doctrinal development in the West based on a Latin attempt to rationally explain where the souls of those who are neither in heaven or hell are.

And it is perfectly logical to conclude that if someone in moral sin goes to hell and someone who is pure goes to heaven, then if one dies in venial sin or else isn't totally detached from sinfulness, the only place he can go is to a place of purgation.

But again, the teaching that souls 'go' to heaven and hell BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ is a later Latin doctrine that was never accepted by the East - and has no real Patristic witness in the West until much later.

The Greeks were shocked at the Council of Florence when they learned that the Latins had assigned "places" to souls after death and before the second Coming of Christ.

For the East, we pray for the dead to be losed from their sins. AND we can pray FOR as well as TO the Saints. In all cases, such prayer can make even more perfect their union with God and, as in the former case, bring them closer to God.

Our Divine Liturgy prays FOR the Mother of God and the Saints (see the priest's prayers following the Canon). Our relationship to God is always dynamic and can always become even more perfect.

It is only at the Second Coming of Christ when we are composite wholes, body, soul and spirit, once again that we will be judged for heaven or hell.

Until then, the souls of the reposed are in the "forecourts" of either.

And prayer for those who have reposed should be made assiduously to God.

As St Peter Mohyla said in his Catechism, "Even if we see someone make a bold sin before death, we should pray to God and ask Him not to punish that person according to their sin."

Alex

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

I agree!

Toll-houses are reflected in liturgical prayers and in the entire structure of the 40 day commemoration of the dead following their repose.

The term "gnostic" is simply a cheap shot by modernists.

Alex

The Orthodox Church believes that if a soul is to be purified before the final judgement, then the only place for purification is in the fire of hell - not purgatory. Before the parousia and the final judgement by Christ, the way to heaven remains open and we seek to help the souls of the departed through prayer, fasting, alms and the offering of the Holy Liturgy.

Spasi Khristos - Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

Am I wrong, or are you here?

The Eastern Church believes not in any purifying fire - the Orthodox at Florence who became Catholics weren't even obliged to admit that Purgatory had fire in it!

Alex

Dear Alex -

The difference here is that whilst the Latin Church spoke about purgation in temporal fire - purgatory - the Orthodox theologians said that there is only the eternal fire of hell, in which the temporal sins may be purged. The image of fire is not always present in Eastern interpretations. The image of a place of darkmess and sorrow, untouched by the divine light is ogten encountered. What it all adds up to is the Orthodox assertion that even temporal punishment takes part in hell, where for some poor souls the punishment may be eternal.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

Then what becomes of the idea of the "Forecourt" of both heaven and hell?

And that we only really enter into either after the Second Coming of Christ?

Alex

Dear Alex -

The intermediate state of the soul between the particular and final judgements is a foretaste of the eternal abode of the soul. The fulness of the bliss of heaven - or the horror of hell - is surely experiential and not necessarily geographical.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark,

That's what I meant - the soul is neither in heaven or in hell before the Final Judgement.

Will you be ordained an Hieromonk in the future?

Not that it's any of my business. . .

But not to have one so wonderful AND brilliant as a priest is surely not good . . .

Alex

So, Alex, let me get your take on it straight.

When we die, we go into the respective forecourts/"waiting rooms" of Heaven and Hell (wherever we are to go eventually) and experience a sort of "lesser" version of the Final Courts? Is that it?

ChristTeen287

P.S.- Let us remember the only thing about Purgatory/Final Theosis we are obliged as Catholics to believe is that,

a) There is a place of some type of purgation before one enters Heavem, IF one has gained salvation and,

b) Prayers for the souls in these/this place(s) is efficacious.

I don't see how this would contradict either your version or the Roman version.

Well, this discussion has certainly taken on! From the West I hear assertions that purgatory is orthodox, and from the East I hear that Seraphim Rose is a noteworthy example of orthodox traditional beliefs in toll houses. As far as I have seen myself, neither view is mainstream within the eastern orthodox churches. Fr. Seraphim has acceptance among folks with a synodal bent (Church Outside Russia, Christ the Savior Brotherhood, etc), but not necessarily among mainstream orthodox seminary theologians in America. Other orthodox clergy have said so, in any case. Purgatory as it is understood in the West is not taught to catechumens of the eastern churches as far as I know, so I have some difficulty seeing how it could really be accepted in the east at large.

Having said all this, as early as "The Spiritual Meadow" of the early desert fathers, there are stories of prayers after death helping the deceased to improve his/her situation.

The fact is, the less speculation with regard to the hereafter the better. Non-Christians and Protestants I know find the orthodox practice of panakhidas at the 40th day and yearly anniversary a good thing, because they help the living as well as the dead. There is nothing quite so hard as living with grief after the community's initial attention has passed.

You will certainly not read the English word there - that is foreign to all writer of the time - but if you become familiar with Hebrew customs, traditions, and such - then purgation (the action of being purged from sin - either before of �after� death) is certainly there in both the Old and New Testament.

The word Purgatory - is certainly dated - if the doctrine was formulated today it would be �Purgation� because times and culture have changed. The word �Purgatory� was well understood rightly at the time it was formulated and in the culture in which it came to be (by those who cared to understand it). The Hebrews spoke of it with the word �shela� and although they spoke of it as a place and noun (�you have laid me low in shela�) it is clearly meant as an action and verb and is comparable to being near death in the desert, dry and waterless, while the sun burns down upon you and your only food is the waterless dry earth.

The history in the church of the verb being noun�ed - is long.

Heaven? - used as a noun but is a verb. Hell - used as a noun but is a verb. God - used as a noun but is a verb. Abraham, Israel, Jew (�those who have-the-form of Jews but are not� - Paul when speaking of Judacisors) all used as nouns but are verbs. How about �Paradise� the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew �Eden� when we hear Christ say �Today you shall be with me in Paradise (Eden).� - what day will it be in Paradise? What time of day? Shall it be toward evening? Will there be trees and grass ? Shall we look for Eden somewhere in Africa? Perhaps he means some other dimension or on some far away planet?

Is it not the fundamentalists among the Muslims who believe that after the Resurrection heaven will be here on earth and each man will have seven virgins to have his way with?

Certainly those who spread the �truth� that the Catholic Church teaches that Purgatory is a location and place - implicate that she also teaches that heaven and hell (with Purgatory in between) are also - places.

If "the Greeks were shocked The Greeks were shocked at the Council of Florence when they learned that the Latins had assigned "places" to souls after death and before the second Coming of Christ." - then what they were shocked at was what was in their own heads and they falsely, in their pride, attributed it to the Latins. "How can WE the great Greeks - the pride of philosophy and defenders of the true church - be wrong??? We judge all men by the measure of ourselves." I cannot help, from my study of the early church, to think that it is a great tribute to the power of the Providence of God that the Catholic Churches (several) even survived the self-righteous pride of too many of the early Greek fathers.

Purgation is an action. We something refer to heaven and hell as if they were a - place - Jesus himself did this and if we were to take Him to task for it we would have to believe that hell is the physical location of Gehenna and is only a few hundred feet wide just outside of the wall of Jerusalem (the town dump) and its fire have been out for 2000 years�. but only those unfamiliar with understanding the full doctrine (and care not to understand it better) get stuck. It is better to say �I do not understand what they teach� then it is to accuse them of a false teaching which they do not teach. How else are we to understand Christ himself when he advises us to accept our purgation while yet still alive - or after death we shall be thrown into prison and not let out into union with God �until the last farthing is paid�?? Talk about the concept of Toll house!!

Alex - I do not say that YOU believe heaven is a �place� or that you initiated the rumor that the RC teaches Purgatory is a place of time and space - but you have certainly fallen to it somehow.

The rest of my letter is actually addressed the nameless masses who have fallen to this rumor�

The Eastern church is replete - with references to this action - either before death or after. The trace and line of the doctrine that a soul (person) must be purged of sin and its effects before union with God - begins in Genesis (the angel who stands at the path back to Eden - with his flaming sword - that no one may return to Eden unless all sin be cut and burned from him) - runs straight through to Revelations - (those martyr who now stand in white robes - those who have endured the action of purgation) - and that one must be purged is embedded as a cornerstone of mystical tradition East - West - etc.. through out the entire Catholic church.

The burnt offering (symbolic of our own sacrifice and purgation) - the sacrifice of our wills - the three stages of the spiritual life (as first laid out by the Theban desert father - to be carried on to us today through the earliest Greek fathers). One will surely mis-read any book if one does not take care to know the mind, culture and traditions of its writers. To keep us safe from that - we have obedience to the magisterial structure of the Church - and it is this magieretial structure which authored the book (apostles) codified the book (succession) and has the only legitimate authority to tell the meaning of the book (the ecclesiastic church today). God has made it easy for us - we do not all need to be scholars to confirm what the church teaches. Why do we leave what God guarantees to go off and try to figure it our ourselves or look for the �real� truth outside of the guaranteed authority? A bit foolish - not to mention a waste of ones short time here.

My regrets for being blunt - but the promulgation of this false implication on the Roman Church - is the sin of rumor (if you ask me) and its life (carried on and on through years and years) astonishes me. Such a falsehood - believed by a majority - becomes �truth� to so many. I have no idea why they are satisfied to flit around the edges of the church and do not just dive into her center - her core - and say to themselves - it is up to me, it is my obedience and renunciation of my own will and errors that I should now spend my efforts to try and understand the view of the church rather then argue with her and so rise from my unhappy state to mystical union.

Again, my apologies, my frustration is at the �life� of this falsehood - not at the unwitting who heard it somewhere and pass it on as if it were the gospel truth.

Yes. It is true that many Catholic Priests and nuns taught purgatory as a �place� - either misunderstanding the doctrine or - intentionally putting it in words that young minds might understand a bit. Like the stories of Genesis - if one ceases at the literal words - who is to blame? The one who wrote Genesis or the reader who fails at the spirit of it by stumbling on the letter of it?

If we must condemn the letter of the Law - then ALL early father�s were so wrong about so much - that they should ALL be condemned as heretics. The world is not flat - angles do not fly - neither the Copts nor the Ethiopian church was in heresy - and many of the early Greek �fathers� were so self righteous that who ever did not agree with them - they did their best to get thrown out of the church (they thought they WERE the Church!). To be Catholic - you had to be Greek or think and speak like a Greek.

Being a saint or early father - does not mean they were error free like Jesus Christ. To treat the early fathers as infallible and to substitute our own poor understanding of their thoughts over the guaranteed authority of the Church today - is a mistake.

It is regrettable - that member of any church - often teach their own mistaken ideas, in the name of that church - but it is also regrettable that we, the supposed faithful, take very little interest to dig deeply into the core of our church in order to get to the source of the stream before it has become polluted by a number of half-hearted members. Just because the Pope has infallibility at times - does not mean all members of the Roman Church have infallibility at all times. Although many people act as if every member of the Roman Catholic church is supposed to be infallibly teaching the church at all time. Would! That all members of the RC WERE infallible at all times! But only the magisterial is and only in union with the Pope - and at certain times and in certain matters. The rest depends upon our own trust and obedience to that guarantee assured by Christ.

While it seems I am hammer Alex, I am not - I wish I could hammer the invisible spirit that keeps the Catholic churches apart - day after day - week after week - decade after decade - didn�t I see that spirit in a movie where it kept singing �Time is on my side� as it passed from unwitting person to unwitting person down trough the eons? We have all felt it - we have all spoken its words and done its deeds.

The pity is - that even if someone here were to read my message and it dawn on them what great injustice we do to each other because of our habitual fallen nature - within a short time these false "truth" will do another round on this board, as if it were the first time ever discussed, even as my words in this message (a plea) disappears like tears in the rain.

RayK,

Brilliant! Your words, especially on what our Divine Liturgy refers to as "the Edenic Paradise," ring true and in accord with the Armenian Church Tradition as well.

Sorry if anyone gets a headache but I have a question -- don't the "East" and "West" agree on the fact that a person's soul, prior to the general resurrection of the dead, has a 'state of being' in which it exists? It seemed as if Alex's post was saying that the "East" believes that a person's soul is in some sort of 'waiting' state as if 'neither here nor there' prior to the general resurrection of all of us -- which gets me a bit confused - isn't it the same theological conclusion, whether one is of an 'Eastern' or 'Western' bent ...? or is it truly 'different' ?
Sincerely
and slightly puzzled,
with best wishes to you all,
C of S

To repeat Alex's point - the hymns and canons of the Church are repleat with many references to the Toll-houses. Much of the problem in this discussion stems from too literal an interpretation of very literal Byzantine terms and images - whether they are references to hellfire or toll-houses.

They must be taken in the context they were written and within the Tradition also. the modernists within Orthodoxy often try to apply some sort of German scholarly form criticism to faith, scraping away what they consider to be centuries of accretions. This is what traditionalists saw as the problem in the 'Parisian' theologians approach to Orthodoxy. They took the faith, piety and practice of the Church outside its Orthodox context, its patristic context and the context of a LIVING faith. We are lead to some sort of renovationism which thinks it knows better than the fathers and the Tradition of the Church trashing ideas which held fast until the neo-Orthodoxy of the modern world - weighted with protestant baggage - started picking fault.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Dear RayK,

Certainly, we cannot equate "place" with "state."

But clearly, the Latin theologians at the Council of Florence taught a distinction between heaven, hell and purgatory as states.

It was this distinction that the Greeks repudiated as a recent Latin invention.

You are entitled to your Latin bias, a bias that you expressed when you deprecated the Greek theologians and fathers who were present at that council.

The pride here is your own, forgive me, as neither you nor I are entitled to pass judgement on EITHER the Latin or the Greek fathers who were at that Council.

The doctrine of the Roman Church, as expressed in numerous times, has been clear. One must believe that "there is a Purgatory."

What else can that mean except that it is a state, fine, but different from heaven or hell?

The experience of purgation, cleansing - yes that is in the Bible.

But is purgatorial fire in the legalistic sense the later Roman Church interpreted it as?

I grew up with indulgences, temporal punishment, purgatory etc.

To me it seemed one big legalistic twist on a simpler message of the Gospel and of the Fathers.

One may philosophize on the basic Roman doctrines, but do you truly believe that most Roman Catholics understand Purgatory to the level of mystical extrapolation as you have presented?

In a number of points, you come closer to the Greek understanding of eschatology.

And that is fine.

When we come to the Holy Father, let us remember that the Pope is very conversant with Eastern theology.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Holy Father affirmed the traditional Eastern doctrine of Original Sin, over and above the Augustinian notion.

His view of purgatory as he stated is simply bringing it into a new synthesis with the Eastern tradition - and I accept his explanation wholeheartedly and he is to be congratulated on opening up so much to the Eastern point of view.

What the Pope is teaching is NOT the traditional RC medieval notion of purgatory.

What the Pope is teaching is a Patristic view that is entirely consonant with what the East has always believed.

Alex