www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Fatima To Become INTERFAITH SHRINE!

Thanks for the further info and the translations. It appears there was some sort of gathering but I question whether the initial report is really an accurate report of what went on. Most likely there were a wide variety of people there and I wouldn't doubt that the priest who's been censured by the Vatican was there also as one of the speakers. The rest of the initial report is, I believe, yellow journalism.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dear Orthoman,

Actually, I set a trap for you - and you fell for it!

I ended my post with an invocation that you ASSUMED meant that I agreed with a particular understanding of Fatima where Russia's conversion to Catholicism is the goal.

As in the tendentious journalistic article you brought forward here, one could draw a certain conclusion based on what was said in it.

But that is not the only conclusion we may draw - it is just one and in the absence of other articles etc.

The same is true for the invocation I used: Our Lady of Fatima, pray for the continuing conversion of Russia.

To what? To Orthodox Christianity. Why just Russia? Because Russia, and only Russia, was ever mentioned at Fatima (and Medjugorje). Why "continuing?" Because there are many Russians who have yet to return to full participation in the life of the Russian Orthodox Church, the Mysteries etc.

You assumed, wrongly, on the basis of information that was not complete.

You should not have jumped to such a conclusion (what you wish to believe, you will believe).

In the same way, we cannot believe what the article you brought forward here says verbatim because we need more information.

You yourself attacked other articles that portrayed the Russian Orthodox church in a bad light.

And you were right.

But what I do find fault with you in this case, Bob, is that you didn't give the same consideration, the same balance to this case by presenting one article and an article that framed this matter in the worse possible way.

You have every right to be zealous for Orthodoxy and to want to expose Catholic heresy or whatever.

But do unto others, as you would have them do unto you.

I'll say my invocation in a more comprehensive way: Our Lady of Fatima, pray for the continuing conversion to Holy Orthodoxy of your people of Russia who have honoured you from the very beginning of their baptism as a nation.

Alex

So what's the matter with conversion? We are all in need of constant conversion! Incognitus

Dear Incognitus,

Orthoman's point is that the Fatima Crusaders are about converting Russian Orthodox to Roman Catholicism.

Alex

The emphasis on conversion in the Fatima message was obviously about communism and not Orthodoxy.

This came up in another board:

[I ended my post with an invocation that you ASSUMED meant that I agreed with a particular understanding of Fatima where Russia's conversion to Catholicism is the goal.]

And, Alex my friend, it is also you that is assuming that's what I meant when I asked 'conversion to WHAT'? But, what else could I assume knowing you are a member of the 'Blue Army'?

I am very aware of the Roman Catholic word games. And since you are utimately under the authority of this church by your very communion with it, I asked the question. Because to some within the Roman Catholic Church and its so called 'sui juris' churches it means a reconversion back to the authority of Rome (Administration note I didn't use the PC identity) since we schismatic Orthodox had not left the 'Catholic Church' at the time of (*) RUSSIA'S CONVERSION! To others it means to Uniatism! [See the article I refer to below which indicates the conversion shold be uniatism].

{(*) Note they lump Russia and Ukraine as one so I guess the Blessed Mother is also asking for the prayers of Ukraine's conversion!}


[Orthoman's point is that the Fatima Crusaders are about converting Russian Orthodox to Roman Catholicism.]

How could I not but initially think that when I spent the 50's listening to all my Roman Catholic friends telling me every Friday that they had to go to Church to pray for the conversion of Russia to ROMAN CATHOLICISM! When asked why, they told me that the nuns told them that's what the prayers were for. In those days it was also a mortal sin for them to come into my 'Russian' Church because we had an American flag on the floor that we walked and spit on according to the nuns and priest! I kid you not!

And I guess that now I'm supposed to believe I dreamed all that to comply with another Roman Catholic rewrite of history!

Personally I have a hard time believing that the Holy Mother would appear to children and identify herself by saying..."I am the Immaculate Conception". Using a recently proclaimed Roman Catholic doctrine to identitify herself rather than by her relationship to her son.

I also have a hard time believing the Blessed Mother, whose prime purpose was to be the chief instrument by which the 'Incarnation' was completed, and to point us towards her son requesting that Russia be dedicated to HER 'Immaculate Heart' rather than her son. Especially knowing the history of Russia and their great love for her and the centuries of honor they bestowed upon her and the countless miracle working Icons they had of her. And her not being aware of all this Russian Orthodox devotion and love towards her by asking Russia be dedicated to her 'Immaculate Heart' that she would reward with peace for the world. -

----------
Russia has been traditionally known as "the House of Holy Mary", and
God's Mother has been regarded as the holy protectress of Russia for
centuries. There were more churches devoted to Her Nativity,
Presentation, Annunciation, Assumption, and Intercession than to
important events from the life of Christ. Many more churches were
built to honour the holy images of God's Mother, such as "Our Lady of
Vladimir", "Our Lady of Smolensk", and "Our Lady of Kazan".

The cult of God's Mother was introduced to Russia by Andrei
Bogolyubski who brought to his new capital the Byzantine icon "Our
Lady of Vladimir". During the most important events of Russian
history, such as the Polish invasion of 1612 or the French invasion of
1812, numerous prayers for victory were offered to this and other
important images of God's Mother. Even the Russian tricolour flag,
first introduced in 1667, was modeled after the traditional colours of
her clothes.

At the beginning of the 20th centuries, strange things started to
happen with holy icons. "Our Mother of Kazan" was stolen from the
Kazan monastery and was apparently burnt by thieves to ashes; "Our
Mother of Smolensk" (or the Hodegetria) started to "cry" with resin
(the icon perished during the WWII). The Fyodorovskaya icon of God's
Mother at Kostroma's Ipatievsky Monastery was considered the holy
protectress of the Romanov family: the first Romanov tsar's mother
blessed him for the reign with this icon. This holy image (said to be
painted by Apostle Luke but dated by analysis only to the 9th century)
started to blacken from 1911 on, and by 1917 it became so black that
almost nothing could be seen on it. Other divine images were
scattered: "Our Lady of Vladimir" and the Blachernitissa (made in the
7th century from the ashes of Christian martyrs) are exhibited at the
Tretyakov Gallery, "Our Lady of Tikhvin" is now in Chicago, and only
the tragic masterpiece "Our Lady of Tolga" (1314) was yesterday
(22-Aug-2003) returned to the Tolga Convent at Yaroslavl.

Our Lady of Vladimir:
http://www.pbs.org/weta/faceofrussia/timeline/1100/12c.html
Our Lady of Kostroma ("Fyodorovskaya", after the restoration):
http://www.aquarium.ru:8080/misc/icons/019_feodorovsk_kost.jpg
Our Lady of Blachernae:
http://www.aquarium.ru:8080/misc/icons/033_vlahern.jpg
Our Lady of Tolga:
http://www.aquarium.ru:8080/misc/icons/022_tolgsk.jpg

-----------

Or when I read Roman Catholics who proclaim the following -

http://www.catholicism.org/pages/ConvRus.htm

"The Mother of God, in 1929, forecast to Sr. Lucy, the Fatima seer, that if Russia were consecrated to her Immaculate Heart by the Pope and the world's bishops in union with him, it would be converted. Ever since then, faithful Catholics have prayed for this as a precondition to promised world peace. However, the immediate object of their prayer, the conversion of Russia, might better be considered the country's reconversion. That is because, when the nation we now know as Russia became Christian a thousand years ago, it was the One True Church she embraced. The Christian East had not yet gone into schism."

"In any event, it is useful to tell the story of Russia's first becoming Christian, if only to show that when in this century Our Lady of Fatima spoke of the country's conversion, she was not talking about a development that would arise from nothing at all. A certain historical continuity will be reinforced if we also briefly consider that, similar to the very strong Catholic influence which had existed in early 19th-century Russia, so also a Catholic influence was beginning to grow there again in the years immediately before and after the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917. Seeds of Russia's conversion of which Our Lady of Fatima spoke have been planted in the past. The ground has been prepared, more than once."

"It ought to be added here that Catholics should not believe, as many seem to do, that when Our Lady spoke of Russia's conversion, she was talking about Russians starting to worship at Mass celebrated according to the principal historical rite of the Western Church, the one that still prevailed in the West in 1917 and 1929, the so-called Tridentine. Much less would a converted Russia go Novus Ordo. There is a Russian Catholic Church of the Byzantine Rite. It has three parishes in the United States."

[Alex writes:

Our Lady of Fatima, pray for the continuing conversion to Holy Orthodoxy of your people of Russia who have honoured you from the very beginning of their baptism as a nation.]

But WHAT KIND OF ORTHODOXY Alex? You, yourself call yourself an "Orthodox Catholic' while remaining under Romes authority by your communion with it. Others here think they are 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome'!

Every time you would state that what I was saying was the truth I took it to mean that this truth was based on an Orthodox understanding of things. And I was hoping that indirectly you were trying to make a point to those reading your post. The point being that if they were really 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome' as they claimed, they wouldn't be arguing with me but agreeing with me. The fact that they weren't, only proved that they thought & believed like Roman Catholics, not Orthodox Catholics. But now I see that was just wishful thinking. And its more a game than anything else.

Regarding the article. I just printed it as it appeared in a Portuguese Newspaper with out any comments. Time will tell if it has any merit or is just more bad journalism.

OrthoMan

I respectfully submit this topic be deleted since it is completely unsubstantiated and reeks of sedevacantist authoring.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Lance:

What does it have to do with Sedevacantism?

(Aren't sedevacantists like the Old Believers but Roman Rite) ?

Dear Father in Christ Orthoman,

You are a better man than I - you would be an excellent amateur wrestler, judging from your philosophical skill!

I do mean Orthodoxy in the sense that you are Orthodox.

I do not pretend to be "Orthodox in communion with Rome" as I think that that is confusing and offensive to Orthodox Christians.

And "conversion" here would mean a deeper conversion to union with God and Christ - not a change of Churches.

You are right, what else could you have assumed given what Catholics have written from the Fatima perspective about its relation to Orthodoxy.

I appreciate your keen, incisive analytical skills and I've clearly lost to you in this word game!

But to lose to you, Sir, is no disgrace.

Who da man?

You da man!

You da ORTHOman!

Alex

Alex:

You didn't lose anything my friend. In fact, you continue to gain my respect. That respect grows, rather than diminishes. We continue to learn from each other. From knowledge comes respect. You can't fully respect something you don't really understand.

OrthoMan

Dear Orthoman,

Please accept my very sincere spiritual bow to your person!

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

All I have to say is:

"What fellowship does light have with darkess?"

Even if this report has been exaggerated, I cannot think that it has been invented. It has happened too many times before (visiting synagogues, Hindu temples, etc.), that all I have to say is, "where's there's smoke, there's fire." When will we realize that conversion does not take place in a round table discussion and is never negotiated? We have to be gentle, we have to be meek.... but we have to be firm and we have to shout the truth from the housetops. And yes, this means at times HAVING TO BE MEAN ABOUT IT, and saying, YOU ARE WRONG. "What fellowship does light have with the darkness?" Is it not all the more cruel and violent to leave Hindus, Muslims, and pagans IN THE DARK? It all smacks of an abomination of desolation in a holy place.
Most Holy Theotokos, save us!
Almost makes me want to be a Lefebvrist again.

Arturo

I do pray for Russia's conversion to union with the Catholic Church, and I am not ashamed to do so.

That was Vladimir Soloviev's prayer, too.

What the heck sense would it make to be Catholic if I didn't want others to be Catholic as well?

Requesting the prayers of all,
LatinTrad

PS--Arturo, I share your frustration--just make sure that your response is a rational one and not an emotional one. I think we would all love to be Lefebvrists in our "gut," but knowing that we would be leaving the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church should stay such impulses.