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Kurt,

I am going to jump on the bandwagen and say that you should not have said what you said to Joyce. You have never demonstrated that John Paul II holds or has taught the views you express; you merely say, "hey I'm with John Paul on this one and you're not, so you're not REALLY Catholic!"

Well my faith is centered around Jesus Christ, not Pope John Paul II (who I think is wonderful, by the way). John Paul II can make mistakes just like you or me, Kurt. Not that I think he has made a mistake by doing ecumenical prayer services (which I support), but I just want to make the point that he is according to Catholic teaching INFALLIBLE not IMPECCABLE.

Next, since you are just a Rusyn who "didn't know nothin' bout no Roman Catholics till you got older", and since I would never think of calling you a liar, I will assume that you really didn't know much about Roman Catholics. So you need to listen to Joyce, who is older than you, and understand what she went through. I have spoken to others who experienced the same pain. I wouldn't care about how you think if you wouldn't have hurt this nice lady by bashing her with your supposed "tolerance."

anastasios

Joyce:

Muslims are not our mortal enemies.

Muslims are not Pagans.

Our God and theri God is the same God.

The Church Universal before the Council is the same Church as the Church Universal today.

I can't tell you if inviduals have betrayed you, but the Church has not.

I like Orthodoxy too.

I don't remember what it was like in the sixties, it was 30 -40 years ago.

I remember my once devout priest turn into a reform-maniak

Because of sinful people in previous generations, people of a homosexual constitution sometimes sought refuge in religious life to escape oppresion. Our society is currently trying to work out how to promote sexual morality without treating people in inhumane ways that violate the dignity of the human person. Clearly, we are in a troubled and transitional period. We might not havethis problem if our foreparents had been better people.

If practically 90% of what you were taught in Catholic School in Religion class in the 50's is no longer used or believed; than you were not being taught true Catholicism.

We all merit eternal damnation. Itis onlyGod's grace that saves us.

I don't understand your claim that the Pope prays with the very people who are going to be damned for believing in their heresy.

You are incorrect that all [Catholic nuns] have either left their orders or have are proponents of that WomanChurch heresy or are lesbians or feminists.

You say "I am appalled at how many priests and lesbians are practicing homosexuals." I do not know of a single priest who is a practicing homosexual and am not surprised that most lesbians are practicing homosexuals. Can you tell me more about the practicing homosexual priests that you know? Who they are, what their ministries are?

Like you, I love the office of the Pope, but unlike you I have deep respect for the Pope.

I celebrate my Communion with Latins.

I would take Jesus in my hand and hope to do so the day I die.

If I felt letting a woman at the altar was communion with heretics then I certain would leave the Catholic Church.

I have t say Joyce, you stike me as very bitter about changes that happened 30 -40 years ago. I hope you have not nursed this bitterness all those years. On the other hand, you seem to react negatively to my support for the course you have chosen. I am not sure what you are looking for. Are you asking to be begged to stay a Catholic? You seem to have made up your mind.

Personally I believe we are all called to full communion with the Universal Church and her Pastor, on an individual basis we must all do what we think is best.

Anastasios,

I live peacefully and securely in the embrace of the God of Love.

My confession of faith is that of a Muslim and certainly is not one that a Christian can embrace. I certainly do not believe it is one a Christian could embrace with a clear conscience.

However, you err when you say that my confession is one Muslims cannot embrace, for many do. Millions of Sufi Muslims, and others, profess the same confession. There is no central dogmatic authority within Islam that can decree unilaterally just what is or is not Islam, although there are certainly impostors who would claim such authority.

I hope this clarifies some very important points.

And thank you for being straightforward and sharing your deepest convictions with me.

Salam

Abdur Islamovic

Kurt:

Again you show the sensitivity of a gnat. I don't think I need to say more about that. And I don't understand why Catholics like myself who were "damaged goods" after the Church in America did all the "experiments" after Vatican II have to be neglected and treated like pariahs; like we are idiots for believing that there are major discrepancies going on in Rome from Tradition. I was reading the other day in the Rudder that if a cleric or layperson were to even attend a Jewish service that they were automatically excommunicated from the Catholic Church; I am sure that also applies to Islamic observances as well, so why the discrepancy. After all of the Christians that were killed by the Muslims even until this day, note Serbia, you still say we worship the same God, what utter tripe! I don't care I will remain faithful to Tradition even if they kill me! I love my Catholic Faith and that is why I am becoming Orthodox to be a Catholic who belongs to an unchanging Church of Tradition one that I know will be the same 1000 years from now. I cannot be in Communion with the Pope because of all his actions and contradictions. You say, Why post on this Board? Because I cam still a Catholic and find comfort here; And can learn here. And I will still be a Catholic when I become Orthodox, but a Catholic in a Church that will not self-destruct and assimilate the errors of modernism and liberalism. Rome will have to undergo its purgatory before I reconsider coming back and that will be long after I am dead. And essentially I want to save my eternal soul; I don't want to spend the rest of my Catholic life fighting the liturgy committee to put votive candles in the "blessed Sacrament room" or to have Rosary before mass etc.
I want to be at peace. And yes, maybe I am looking for someone to convince me to stay in union with Rome. In my heart I will always love the Roman Catholic Church of my childhood, but that Church no longer exists. It is funny to go into these Indult Mass chapels and SSPX centers and see them try to recreate the way it was in the 50's, well it wasn't anywhere near like they present it. The fifties was the Golden Era for the Church in America and will never be again, aahh the memories. They are all hurt Catholics like me who either put up a pretty face to get a pretty Mass like the FSSPers or like the Society of Saint Pius the Tenth who at least has the tenacity to leave Rome until they straighten their act. But I cannot be a part of the SSPX because they are a cult and are very manipulative. I choose Orthodoxy and will fit well into it, by the Grace of God. I believe my comments are relevant here and I am not fogetting the context of this Forum; many of you are wonderful Christians and your posts are inspiring.
I will leave if you want me to, but I feel maybe I can get some answers here. Thank you.

As Byzantine Catholics, we take the tone and spirit of our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II. In every place and on every possible occasion he always speaks to other Christians in other communions separated from the fullness of the Church as possessing great dignity and as worthy of our respect. They are devoted to the person of Christ, they reverence His Word and they are attentive to His Spirit. They are members of the Church, though imperfectly. We should speak about them in terms of our prayer of repentance and our sincere yearning for full fellowship.

Followers of Islam, who, like us, reverence the one true God, seek to serve Him with sincere hearts by patterns of fasting, regular prayer and observance of their law. To Christians, they are often examples of men and women dedicated to God, single-minded in their devotion and faith. Our Holy Father has repeatedly reached out to the followers of Islam and visited even their place of worship in his recent pilgrimage to Syria. He has taken the lead in working toward good relations and sincere respect for religious liberty and freedom of conscience. In Islamic countries we hope for and ask for the respect due to faithful Christians, that they be entitled to follow their religion in peace. How can we ask such respect from them if we are unwilling to offer the same respect and freedom to sincere followers of Islam. John Paul II is working for the rights of Christians by showing tolerance at every opportunity. By such tolerance he hopes to show the way in which of followers of different faiths and different religions can and should live together. His language is studied, careful, and appropriate and should be a model for us to follow.

One does not deny the truth of Christ when one strives to see Christ in all men and women.

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: Administrator ]