www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Thinking about changing rites: a question

Excuse me, Peter. I explained why your post led me to read it as I did. That is NOT the same thing as trying to make you feel "guilty" or doubting your love for anything.

That you have twisted my words so far out of context for your own purposes is pitiable.

God's peace to you, brother.

Dear Peter,

I also was brought up in the Latin Church, but switched two years ago (at 15) to the Byzantine rite. Maybe it would be good for you to hear the reasons why I switched, a sometimes hearing other people who have done what you're considering helps.

1)I can feel God in the building: I know I know, feelings aren't everything, but they really help out most of the time if they're for you and not against you. I'm also not much of a rationlist anymore, so the icons and the chant draw me far more than they would have say....four years ago.

2) I often agree more with the worldview: The more I find out, the more I find myself agreeing with the unique theology. It seems that the Byzantines don't view the spiritual world as an alien thing, on the contrary, the spiritual has infused itself into the physical. It's refreshing.

Those are the main two public reasons that I have for switching. Others are personal so I doubt they'll help you. Good luck with your discernment.

Peace of Christ,
Nathan Augustine, son of Joe Sebastion

Dear Peter,
I can understand you very well - and I want to encourage you. You will experience a "holistic" life, that means that there will be no more a difference between public life and personal life, between spiritual life and you outer conduct. You will become "one" in your mind, your soul and your body.
Humble
Nastavnik

Dear Peter,

Please calm down. You seem to be grappling with many issues right now in your life which are making you feel emotional. Many of us have been in that place at one time or another...

This written medium is not a perfect form of communication with our brothers and sisters. These posters are good, compassionate and kind people I do think that they were trying to help you, though it may not have been exactly the kind of help and advice you were actually seeking.

Dear brother, my only humble and unworthy advice would be to not jump into any rash decisions, and to wait them out a long time...and pray about your dilemmas, but don't make them the focus of your daily spiritual life. God has a way, in His own mysterious ways, and in His infinite wisdom, and personal knowledge of our lives yesterday, today and tomorrow, of letting us know EXACTLY where He wants us to be, to go, or to stay.

Another piece of humble advice I might give is that you need to think about how your choices might affect others around you and perhaps your relationships with them, and if in the end, since the grace of God is in both traditions you are speaking of, it is prudent to make a drastic change. I would give this advice for any change. We live in a fluid society where change and uprooting in many aspects of life is almost required as part of being in the American life style, yet with change often comes great insecurity and lack of belonging. Some change is always good, but I don't know if drastic uprootings of everything one has known, whether it be a community, a home or a church is always the best thing for some persons.

Finally, I don't think that anyone was questioning your love for anything. You have always shown yourself to be nothing short of a loving human being on this forum. Furthermore, you are a valued member and poster of this forum.

My prayers are with you at this confusing time for you. May God lead you to His answers for your life quickly. God bless you.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator

Dear Alice,

Thanks for the post.

After my origin post on this thread, I receive a few replies which I thought had a slight "hermeneutic of suspicion" (if you will) toward me -- for example, "I would say if this is the ONLY reason you would change rites, not to do so." I tried to correct this in a fairly gentle way (see my post of Sep. 30), as I felt it was making it difficult to proceed with the discussion.

However, when I read Carole's next post (Sep 30), I became a little upset (don't worry: I've calmed down since) about some of the things she said, e.g.

As a result of the way I was feeling, the tone of my next post (Oct 5) may have been rather defensive. (If Stephanos and Carole are reading this, I would like to apologize to them for the poor choice of words: "attempts by Stephanos, Carole, and others to make me feel that way". I didn't really mean to question anyone's intentions.)

Anyhow, that's all I have to say for now (I'm at the library and I'm running out of time on this computer). God bless and thanks to everyone else who posted recently,

Peter.

You know what, Peter? You don't have to justify your reasons for wanting to switch rites to anyone except yourself (and the church, when you make the formal request). If it seems right to you, then go for it and don't worry if you can't seem to come up with an "intellectual" reason.

Now if you announced that you'd decided to switch from Christianity to Zorastrianism, maybe we might want you to come up with a really good reason. But you're switching rites within the same Church - so what? Sometimes the Holy Spirit leads us down paths that don't make sense to anyone else. If it makes sense to you, then God bless you and more power to you.

(P.S. sorry about the change to my avatar - the other day I downgraded my subscription to Angelfire/Lycos, and in retaliation they've stopped letting me link to the images I had stored on my website. Cheapskates. )

Although it should be noted that this isn't something unique to the Christian East but also to the Christian West. In fact, its what any Christian is called to, regardless of rite or local church.

Dear TheistGal,
It has rarely happened that you and I have found ourselves in complete, total agreement about something; but I think this is definitely one of those times.

Shawn,
True, but I do think it [holistic life] is emphasized more in the East than it is in the West. I don't think Nastavnik meant to suggest that it is entirely absent from the West.

Nathan,
Just out of curiosity, which Byzantine-Rite Church did you decide to join? In any case, it sounds like it's working out pretty well for you.

Peace,
Peter.

Slava Isusu Christu! Slava Va Niki!
Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!

Greetings to all. Congratulations on your decison to embrace Eastern Theology fully, Peter. May the Holy Spirit guide you on your path towards Theosis.

I also am ready to make the leap of faith and petition for a formal change of rites. (I wish to enter the next stage of my life as a Byzantine Catholic). I am drawn to the love and reverence of the Divine Liturgy, the Mysteries of Christ, the love of the Theotokas, and the plainchant of the congregation. There is a purpose planned for me within the Church. I feel this deep inside. Please wish me luck, and if anyone has any suggestions to include in my request to the bishops, please feel free to PM. I would really appreciate it!

"German-American by birth, Byzantine by the Grace of God"

Michael

Since it has been established that you have genuine love for the Melkite church and have more than one reason for desiring a change of rite, I say go for it (although I'm not sure what the benefits of a change of rite are... all members of the Catholic communion can enjoy the sacraments of any Catholic church).

As an eastward pilgrim it has been my experience, however, that one truly looking for Eastern Christianity will not find it in Catholic Church, except in scattered places. Technically of course they are Eastern, in that they use the Byzantine Rite and (sometimes) have an eastern theology and perspective on the faith. But 400 years (more for the Melkites) under Latin leadership, along with an undeniable Latinization movement that only in recent times has relented, make it impossible for such a church to be wholly eastern.

Not that this is necessarily a bad thing. In the early church diversity was the rule, not the exception.

Of course, my experience comes only from the Byzantine Catholic Church, not the Melkite, and may not apply at all to the Melkite church, and therefore is probably more useful to the fellow joining the Byzantine church. (I have been a member of the Orthodox Church in America for 2 years, having been in the BC Church for 10 years. Prior to that I was not a Christian. I have never been Roman Catholic).

Do not get me wrong- I am not trying to discourage you. I think all who are sincerely interested should change rites, even to go westward from the east if so inclined. For someone coming from the West, I think the EC churches are a good place to start. You will find out if you really interested in becoming an Eastern Christian, or if you are just looking for an alternative to the Latin church. My point is just that the uniate churches in general are a big step eastward, but they are not the east. I think this comes from their strange histories and the fact that many of the believers don't even know what their church is (the teenage Sunday school class at my BC parish didn't know anything about the Orthodox Church or why they were suddenly using Orthodox material for their education). I believe the Byzantine Church and probably other uniate churches are still trying to figure what they are and where they fit in, and I think the rest of us are too.

Please do not mistake me for having any ill will toward the Byzantine Church or the Latin Church- while I disagree on a handful of issues with the Catholic Church, I love them both very much, especially the Byzantine for showing me Christ and putting me on the path I am currently on. I had many profound and spiritual experiences in that church, the church of my baptism, and I am still most fond of the Ruthenian music and chant.

Never rush things, have patience and trust in the Lord and you will end up where you belong. I look forward to the day when the distinctions "Catholic" and "Orthodox" will no longer matter and we will be one church, as Christ intends it to be.

Wherever you end up, may God bless you and your journey there. May you find happiness in the Lord and His Church, whether Eastern or Western, Catholic or Orthodox.

NF

Nicholas F -

Thank you for telling us that being Eastern Catholic is a "good start" and implying that only by becoming Orthodox are we truly "East" in your estimation. Very nice, that.

And given the perjorative connotation to the word "uniate" that I have seen from the Orthodox - the idea of using it so freely in this context seems to be at odds with your claim that you have no ill-will toward the Catholic Church (East or West).

It is insulting to anyone who is either an Eastern Rite Catholic or a Latin Catholic considering a change of Rites.

I am truly glad that you have found your spiritual home in the Orthodox Church. But try to offer some sense of respect to those who find the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church to be their spiritual home.

I do not want to be Orthodox. If I did I would be. I am Catholic for a reason. I am, in my heart if not on paper, a Byzantine Catholic for a reason. I am, likewise, not Orthodox for a reason.

Being Byzantine Catholic is not a "starting place" nor is it a nice pseudo-Orthodox experience.

Apparently your respect for the Church of your baptism isn't quite so deep as you profess. Or is it simpmly your respect for us here that suffers?

I think you may be overreacting to the post by Nicholas. Besides, he has offered an observation about the state of the Ruthenian which isn't far off the mark. Sorry if that offends you. Just take a tour of a few, if you know what you are looking at you might just agree with him.

There are several parishes in the Byzantine Ruthenian church of the Pittsburgh Metropolia that are recovering nicely. Then there are those circling the drain.

For the most part Nicholas's comments about what some Byzantine Ruthenian parishes are like from his insider observation are spot-on. He could be describing any of more than 100 parishes across the country.
The Vatican uses the term just as freely, many Eastern Catholics use the term without compunction, some refer to themselves as Uniates proudly. One can find instances of that here in the archives. I detected no malice in the post by Nicholas, especially since he explained that he was BC for ten years and still has affection for the church.
Nicholas offered his opinion, which is about 90% of what one gets on these discussion boards. He is entitled to his opinion and to express it.
Thank you for sharing your opinion.
For Nicholas it was a starting place, and he fondly recollects his experiences there. This is a great deal better than many Romans who leave for the East and have nothing less than bitterness over the church they left behind. Nicholas even suggests that people starting with the BC might gravitate toward the Western church, how refreshing!
You don't have to agree with him, but I hope that you resist the temptation to attack everyone you disagree with. It is disedifying.

+T+
Michael

Thanks Michael, your comments were spot on.

I knew I would offend someone with my post, but that was not my intention. I stand by my comments, but I am sorry that they offended you Carole, or anyone else.

You say you are Eastern Catholic (I forgot if you said which church) for a reason. That's fine, I was too until I saw that my reasons were false, but that is a story for a different post. I am not trying to convert you, just explaining my experience. The problem is, that there is no agreement in the BC Church of what it is. I believe Pope John Paul II said that it is an "Orthodox Church in Communion with Rome". This was the view I always held, but by many it was a Roman Church with a "funny Mass", and by even more, including many of those who will be its future priests, it was thought to be some sort of hybrid in between (contrary to the statements by the Holy Father). This is part of what I mean when it is not completely eastern.

As far as uniatism, while I do not agree with it in principle (the Vatican has even admitted it was a mistake) I do not use the word as a pejorative. It just means a church that came into communion with Rome via a union like that of Trent or Uzhurud.

Many people like you are perfectly happy in Uniate churches and I don't think they should change unless are unhappy or otherwise compelled to.

NF

Dear Nicholas,

Thanks for your beautiful words. I too look forward to the day when we all, Catholic and Orthodox, can be one.

Fair enough. Personally I've never been to a Ruthenian liturgy, and I've only been to a Ukranian liturgy about a dozen times; so my knowledge about non-Melkite EC Churches is largely second-hand. So I won't try to say anything about how latinized or de-latinized they are (or any such questions).

My experience with the Melkite Church is that it is one of those "scattered places" you mentioned, where Eastern Christianity can be found in the Catholic Church.

Also, I mentioned in another recent thread (but I can't remember which one) that if it turned out (somehow) that I had really been Orthodox all along, I wouldn't leave that Church to become Catholic.

Thanks for your advice and God bless,
Peter.

There are definitely a lot of people who have said that, but I'm skeptical whether JPII was one of them. It strikes me as something he wouldn't say, for fear of offending the Orthodox.

(That's my thought on it, but I'm no expert on JPII.)

-Peter.