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Are you the same guy that just got banned from catholic-convert.com?

Are you the same guy that told me that Fr. Meyendorff was a schismatic heretic? (and thus totally missed my point that "heretic" or not, he is a world class scholar that has to be taken seriously)?

Just curious.

In Christ,

anastasios

Dear Anastasios the Academician,

If that is true, it is serious business when even the Latins can't take one of their traditional own.

If he agrees to behave, he can stay here. Perhaps in time he'll change his screen-name from Augustine to Gregory or Basil?

Alex

Are you the same guy that just got banned from catholic-convert.com?

Yes, the one and only. I had been thinking of posting here prior to that, though I suppose the ban has given me much more time to post here.

Honestly, I think it's better I not be there anyway. I'm really not happy with how angry the place was making me (both justifiably and unjustifiably, the latter I'm sorry about). Also I don't think there are many people there who have the ears to hear what I have to say, so there's no point in me railing against a stone wall. To paraphrase the Saviour, they can "eat my dust." (St.Matthew 10:14).

Are you the same guy that told me that Fr. Meyendorff was a schismatic heretic? (and thus totally missed my point that "heretic" or not, he is a world class scholar that has to be taken seriously)?

I remember making that comment, but I really don't remember the context. Do you disagree with my assessment, scholar or no?

I'm sure he was a 'nice' enough man, but I would have been making an objective comment about his deviancy from the Catholic faith, and the fact he did belong to a church which is not in communion with the Holy See, nor recognizes it's authority.

Augustine

Be very careful, Augustine the Canadian. Several of Fr. Meyendorff's excellent books are used as text in the courses taught at the Byzantine Catholic Seminary. All of his books are required reading as we Byzantine Catholics share an almost identical approach to theology with the Orthodox (the major exception being petrine authority but even there we welcome Pope John Paul II's invitation to the Orthodox to help him redefine the role of the pope to serve a reunited Church). When you attack him you attack us.

The Byzantine Forum is not a place for engaging in heavy apologetics, Latin triumphalism or checking to see how Catholic we Byzantines are. If that is why you are here please do not post again and go back to the Roman Catholic messageboards. If you are here to learn about us and about how we do theology, welcome.

Augustine,

Just a word of advice. If you don't want to get yourself banned from this forum I suggest you refrain from calling our Orthodox brothers and sisters heretics and/or schismatics. It is considered rude and unacceptable behavior on this Byzantine forum to which you are a guest. I would also add the Catholic Church does not consider them either, SSPX rhetoric not withstanding. In fact the Cathechism states:

"Those 'who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.' With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound 'that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist'" (CCC 242)

I will admit that your posts so far have been well thought out and generally polite. But if you are thinking on starting the kind of nonsense that got you banned from the other forum, I suggest you find somewhere else to post.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Augustine the Canadian,

Can you call the Orthodox schismatics or heretics when the Pope refers to them as Sister Churches?

In a previous post you stated:

"Eastern Catholics couldn't rightfully be called Catholics, if they did not hold the same views as "Roman" Catholics (and vice versa.) They would not be members of the same Church, which professes the one true faith (the faith without which one cannot be justified before God.)"

So, do you "hold the same view" as the Pope of Rome on this issue?

You again stated:

"Also I suspect the loyalties of anyone claiming to be "Catholic", but denying the Immaculate Conception. While it is one thing to have your own theological tradition and preferences in expression ..., there comes a point where enough is enough, and "sensibility" is becoming heresy."

This gives me the impression that we are allowed to hold our own theological tradition on weekdays and then have to subscribe to "real" Catholic theologies on Sundays. One either has their own theological tradition or one doesn't. Byzantines DO have their own theological tradition and we can't get enoughh of it.

Our deacon-candidate, Lance responded:

"The Eastern Church, as reflected in her liturgical services, emphasizes more the context of the Virgin's conception (i.e., its place in the economia of salvation, prelude to the Incarnation of the Son of God) rather than on what kind of conception she had."

Economia, not ontology. Eastern Catholics cannot claim that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception is a heresy; but we don't celebrate it either. In Byzantine iconography, the Theotokos points to Jesus and NEVER to herself. This is something to contemplate when discerning economical and ontological approaches to Mary's person. Learning what approach Byzantine Catholics use soon will alleviate many headaches later.

Your comments reflect common presumptions we have to deal with everyday as Byzantine Catholics. Our loyalties are not to be "suspected" but appreciated as reflecting the catholicity of the Church. I think you will learn a lot here. You may be surprised that an entire Catholic theology can exist and not be based on Blessed Augustine or Thomas as you learn to 'see with Byzantine Eyes.' Welcome.

Ss. Gregory Palamas and Photius the Great, pray to God for us!

Cantor Joe Thur
Deacon-student

[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Dear Augustine the Canadian,

Fr. Meyendorff was not only "nice," but very well known to the Catholic professors and theologians in Rome.

Fr. Gustave Weigl, SJ, was a close collaborator with his works. It was Fr. Weigl, for example, who insisted that Fr. Meyendorff emphasize more the fact that the Spirit does not proceed from the Son, but from the Father alone!

I too am an enthusiast of Thomism. And I have read Fr. Meyendorff's works closely.

He was not a heretic in any way, and recognized the authority of Rome as it was always recognized for the first millenium of Christianity.

He was Orthodox and faithful to his Church's teachings, which were once held in common before the schism between East and West.

St Thomas Aquinas taught that the procession of the Spirit "through the Son" was the same as what the Latin Church believed about "from the Son" or, as he said, "It is to say the same thing."

And Fr. Meyendorff never denied this. He in fact said that if the Western Church would have removed the Filioque from the Creed at Florence (as even the Western Church had previously agreed that no one church had the authority to introduced changes to the universal creed unilaterally), both sides could have found unity in the "through the Son" formula, as Aquinas agreed.

Aquinas' theology was well respected in the East, as Meyendorff also noted, and he also noted Greek scholars who venerated "Blessed Thomas Aquinas" as a saint privately.

You haven't done a thorough study of Fr. John Meyendorff's work, just as your acquaintance with the tradition of married clergy among the Byzantine Catholics is, by your own admission, based on hearsay evidence only.

That is not good scholarship, that is not good theology, but it is imposing your own views while hiding behind the Dominican mantle of Aquinas.

And while I respect your understanding of Aquinas, your understanding of Eastern theology and of the Cappadocian Fathers needs a lot more work before you will be able to comment on it responsibly.

Alex

Dear Joe,

I agree with everything that you said, but perhaps the invocation of Saint Photios is a little over the top for our friend? :p

Oh, and Alex, since you're an enthusiast of Thomism, do you know of any good books (besides the Summa...don't know Latin) that cover it? Mind you, I'm just wondering what's out there...it seems I'll have my hands full with Eastern theology for a bit.

Dear Catholicos,

Actually, the invocation of St Photios would be so for many of my Ukie Catholic friends and priests!

That's the problem when you have a lot of "Latinukes."

I also knew of a Ukrainian Catholic priest who wanted to establish a Brotherhood under the patronage of St Mark of Ephesus.

Since I've the habit of getting off topic, there are a few good books out there on Aquinas that you might wish to browse at your nearest Catholic bookstore.

The Aquinas Reader is a great place to start!

Patriarch Josef Slipyj, FYI, actually had a Byzantine Icon of St. Thomas Aquinas written for his Church in Rome.

Remember the saying, "The cow jumped over the moon?"

Well, a group of Aquinas' Dominican colleagues wanted to play a joke on their studious brother.

They told him that at precisely such and such a day, at such and such a time at night, a cow will jump over the moon.

Of course, Thomas thought this was crazy.

But at the appointed and predicted time, the entire monastery joined in on the fun, and yelled that a cow was in fact jumping over the moon!

Thomas rushed out to see what all the commotion was about and found his colleagues in the bushes, laughing hysterically. They thought they had the better of him!

But Thomas turned to them and said, "I'd sooner believe that a cow can jump over the moon than that a monk could tell a lie."

Alex

Hey, you guys might be right, and Augustine the Canadian wrong, but show some tact-he seems to be a perfectly good traditionalist Roman Catholic, and you guys certainly are heaping on the abuse.
By all means tell someone he's wrong, but don't pile on the rhetoric-you guys sound too defensive.

MK

Dear Michael,

Yes, everyone else should just smarten up!!

Actually, Michael, I've told my Canadian colleague that I admire him.

I don't admire him for using terms like "schismatic-heretic", and a number of other assumptions about the Eastern Church that he has just not researched at all before jumping to conclusions.

I am all for discussing the Rites, Churches et al.

But I, for one, would never presume to assume and then zoom - in on the Latin Church on something that I've concluded based on hearsay or incomplete research.

I would rather ask my Latin friends about it to let them explain their Church's positions and traditions to me.

As for being defensive, that comes from years of being jumped/dumped on.

Sorry, but it's an occupational hazard with us.

Alex

Why are everyone so afraid of the "H"-word (heretic)?

To say that someone is a heretic doesn't mean that you consider that person to be a bad person that should be burned on the stake, and that he or she will without doubt burn in hell for all eternity...

A heretic is a person who hold errenous beliefs, nothing more, nothing less...

OrthodoxSWE raises an excellent question.

1. The only person who may legitimately declare someone to be a heretic is a bishop.

2. In this imperfect medium of communications, it is both necessary and charitable to assume the best intentions of another and never judge the person. One may disagree with what they have posted but one should never proceed to condemn someone they have not met.

But administrator,

heresy has nothing to do with the personality of intentions of a person, it has to do with his or hers confession of faith, I ned not meet a person to determine if he or she is a heretic if I know his or hers confession of faith....