www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West More - FREDERICA MATHEWES-GREEN

Dear Ray,

I think you are letting Frederika Matthews get to you. Don't! If I recall correctly, her viewpoint was always a little too liberal. Besides she can't be a saint, her lectures cost too much.

Just be grateful she didn't say that we can't unite because of the 'Filioque', the Pope or the 'Immaculate Conception'.

In Christ,

Zenovia

She may have if the editorial wasn't on the opinion page of the Wall Street Journal!

Somehow I don't think that the readers there would really care about the theological differences involved in those topics! :p

In Christ,
Alice

Wow - that grew fast... 16 replies already.

I bet I can wade right into some good heated debate!

-ray

Theist Gal:

If you are in the mood to join in the fray - it began with the thread post which begins with... this nonsensical proposition...

"All for One? The idea of unity divides Catholics and Orthodox Christians"

A published article by a woman - who claims that - the very idea of unity - causes - division.

Go figure.

I remember phrases like that in a book titled "1984" by George Orwell - or was it �Brave New World� by Huxley.

�New speak� ... it is called ... where leaders revised the English language to suit themselves and their purposes - where �up� is really down - where love means hate - and fear is security - and now - unity means division.

These little saying are cute and eye catching - ironic - and clever - but I claim that it is the idea of division - which causes division.

It seems simple to me�

Ideas of unity lead to unity.
Ideas of division lead to division.

I turned the heat up in here. J

-ray

Ahh... its not really Frederika - for all I know her other articles may be wonderful.

I am picking on the 'spirit of division'. It can make its home in anyone.

I know - I will get stoned for it. No problem.

-ray

I think Jakub also noticed her use of �MS�. Coupled with the dual name � is usually an indication that she does not subscribe to the traditional Judeo-Christian rolls of husband and wife - but prefers a corporate merger instead.

She is married to a priest � Fr. Gregory Mathewes-Green - which would leave the two possibilities that she took his last name but prefixed the feminist title �MS� - or - that he they both merged their last names.

Married in 1974 right out of college. From their photos - I think I smoked pot with them J (kidding).

It is noticed that the corporate view of marriage - is carried over to her ideas on church unity - also a corporate merger - in her mind - of which she asks �how will a merger benefit us?�

From a book review at amazon.com
Jakub - you have the nose of a blood hound.

So - how early does she want children to get married???

Children giving birth to children is also a social problem.

She seems to be a blend of feminism and Christianity leaning toward behaviorism.

Anyway - I have nothing against her personally - I just dislike the spirit of division in anyone. And I resent infecting others with it.

-ray

Actually my memory was just sparked at the mention of her exploring and advocating early marriages as a healthy alternative to the sexual lives of young people today.

(Weren't most marriages in the 40's and 50's between girls just graduated from high school and boys just graduated from college... Sure helps those kids stay celibate until marriage, and it just may be that God made us to want to marry, be fertile, and procreate at those ages...) In traditional communities, including the U.S. at that time, there is support from parents and extended families for the young parents. The nuclear family is something of a modern American innovation. Then there is the economy, which is not bad, but what we desire from it is difficult to achieve with one bread winner, and especially, at that age. Khouria Frederica explored all these angles of our modern American reality and how they could be overcome.

I remember thinking that she presented that article in a well thought out manner, and had a very, very, good point.

Anyway, I am getting off topic here, so maybe I will readress this article, (after finding it first) somewhere else for discussion under its own heading.

Alice

I tend to agree with you on this one. The question for me is, can a liberal Episcopalian change her spots? We have a number of Episcopalians in my area who are now OCA. But talking to some of them reveals that they are still Episcopalians, with a name change.

Why not?

I used to be an extremely liberal, radical feminist, atheist.

With God all things are possible.

Dear Friends,

Hyphenated names as indicators of liberalism issues aside . . .

Frederica is well respected within Orthodox and non-Orthodox circles - that is a fact.

And what she says is not anything different from what other Orthodox have said or from what many Orthodox believe.

As djs says, we can argue with her (and with Orthodoxy) on rational grounds - but I really think we are coming to this discussion as if she has wounded us and we are calling on her to apologise.

She has not wounded anyone and has no need to apologise.

Also, I think the RC-Orthodox ecumenical commissions have addressed these issues and they are an ongoing concern.

The RC theologians are aware of the Orthodox position and somehow they don't feel hurt or dismissive of the Orthodox.

We could talk about why she and Orthodoxy feels this way about Catholicism as an objective reality, rather than as something that we are already saying is "a wrong perception."

I don't think there is a "right perception" in these matters UNLESS it is one that we can all agree on, Catholic and Orthodox.

When we reach that level in our discussion, then I think we can see we are in possession of a "right perception" - the perception of a true vision of church unity.

Alex

Actually as liberal episcopalians when they married the combined their last names. But that doesn't mean anything to me.

Anastasios

Dear Friend,

Hyphenated names are also a mark of aristocracy!

And this especially when one is descended from an aristocratic line on both sides of one's background.

When one is from an aristocratic line and marries into another, hyphenated names are rather appropriate.

In Ukrainian, I use a hyphenated name for this reason!

Happily, my credibility here is never called into question as a result . . .

Alex

A leopard does not shed its spots, though they may get a little faded.

Nor do I believe that we jettison all our excess baggage...many are buried deep, many have good attachments, some have sad/bad ones, we do retain some remants...don't we ? They rise to the top/front when agitated/stirred.

just a thought,

james

Comrade! Me too!

It's better on this side, ain't it?

Dear Dolly and Carole,

That's all well and good . . .

However, you should establish a standard for men just to ensure that you aren't being "had" when it comes to gender equality . . .

So I offer myself up as a possible standard, and only if you two agree:

As a husband, I:

wash dishes, clean house, including the bathrooms, water the outside flower-pots, do all the heavy gardening, including the spreading of the manure (something I've been told I do even here with some regularity - am I good or what? ), grass-cutting, weeding in hot weather, dog-walking, making the bed EVERY morning, preparing breakfast for one and all EVERY morning, and making the most frequent use of only two words out of the many in the English dictionary, namely, "YES, DEAR."

Alex