www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West More - FREDERICA MATHEWES-GREEN

Let us simplify... and not get too intellectual as to run around in circles.

Her article said she has a problem - which she gave as a difference between the Orthodox view of unity and the Catholic view. Therefore - she herself said she had a problem with unity. This is simple and not confusing.

No one said - �she is the problem� excepting you came the closest when you said �she is NOT the problem� as if someone else said she was.

I said she - had - a problem. She said she had a problem. She and I agree on that score. This is simple and not confusing.

No one that I noticed did anything to deserve your "yuck". She herself talks about her feminist background, feminist associations, and influences in her life - in her book �Gender: Men, Women, Sex and Feminism� which is currently on sale at book stores. So it is fair that we can talk about what she talks about. To imply some devious motives for us talking about her feminist influences - does not belong to anyone here. You assume - incorrectly - and your imagined comparison to Paul's conversion - is off base - a bit of an insult to people who did not have the motives you suggest to them.

I will recap my own position as simply as I can for you. It is simply logic.

============

People who have a problem with something - have a problem with that something.

People who do not have a problem with something - do not have a problem with that something.

People who do not have a problem with that thing - should not let people who do have a problem with that thing - convince them that they too have a problem with that same thing.

Therefore - people who do not have a problem with the concept of unity between the churches - should pay no attention to the people who do have a problem with the unity of the two churches.

=============

End of logic.


Christ has not given us something impossible to do - or even difficult to do. So any difficulty about it is due to the misconceptions of the persons who finds it difficult and a problem.

It is only difficult and a problem - to people who find it as difficult and a problem.

It is easy ... for them that do not find it difficult and do not find it a problem.

This is all very simple and logical. A child could understand it. Would you not agree?

-ray

Friends,

It has taken me a while to get to this thread, so as a Jane come lately...I just have a couple reflections..I reread both of the threads yesterday and took some time to absorb it before replying today.

In my nutshell... I think the author of the original post of the first thread here makes a good point in that she sees a difference in understanding what the word and action "unity" means. It is not so much a matter of definition as it is a matter of meaning.

She makes some good points and I am not interested in raking her background over the coals. What speaks to me is where she is now and what she is saying now...

Thank you, Father Thomas, for posting this "food for thought" regarding the obstacles between Orthodox and Catholics in regards to what each think unity is.

Meaningful dialogue can certainly lead to better unity and that is, what I think, we are seeking here on this board. At least, I hope so.

In Christ,

Mary Jo

Dear Ray,

I normally post infrequently and spend most of my time reading the messages when visiting the Forum. First, I wish to express my appreciation for you as a brother in the Lord; I admire your heart for seeing the Church in unity and making positive steps in this direction. With this said, please allow me to clarify some things I have written which you took the time to respond to and which bother me in tone and content.

My "yuck" remark was directed primarily in reference to statements like:

These first three statements appear to be hasty generalizations by the writers; in the last statement you have employed the use of an ad hominem to poison the well by implying that we can't trust FMG because she makes a living by writing and creating (false) problems and providing the answers in order to generate income. My allusion to the conversion of the apostle Paul was in reference to the inference of the "leopard and the spots" analogy - my point being - GOD CAN DO THE IMPOSSIBLE - one's background/life before conversion does not have to dictate their future mindset/behavior. Christ makes all things new. The context of my statement was in the light of Dolly and Carole's testimony of conversion from atheism, radical feminism, etc. - a background they share in part/in whole with FMG. Statements aimed at FMG have a wider audience - like TheistGal, Carole or the Orthodox Christians who agree with Frederica.

Of course, Ray, as you mentioned, there is no statement in the posts "she is the problem�"; and to be fair, nor did Frederica say "I have a problem" in the article, ok? She was articulating a viewpoint shared by her Orthodox brethren. Your statements all seem to imply that you believe that FMG (and others like her) are "the problem" in the sense that they promote and keep division alive and that they have some ax to grind:

(emphasis mine)

I question the syllogism you have written. The conclusion, "Therefore - people who do not have a problem with the concept of unity between the churches - should pay no attention to the people who do have a problem with the unity of the two churches". Say, what? The weakness I see in this is that people who have a problem with the RC concept of unity are not ipso facto people who automatically have a personal problem with the unity of the two churches or with members of the other church. No way! They do have a different idea of under what conditions this can take place. It is no surprise to hear children in a divided home, giving the best account they can of why Dad and Mom are not together as each parent explains his/her side of the story.

I share your desire to see the Church reunited and have posted about this elsewhere. Reuniting a broken family is no small ordeal - especially if a lot of time has elapsed and everyone has "gone on with their lives". Impossible? No. Difficult/painful? Usually. Worth it? Definitely.


Woody

I don't see what is so hard to get here.

The complaint is not about her writing about the perspectives of Orthodox on what unity means to Orthodox. Or even, FWIW, what Orthodox might casually infer about Catholics beliefs on the matter.

The problem is that she quite directly claims to articulate what Catholics believe. (A violation of Ghazar's rule.) And she does so on the basis of limited impressions that are readily falsified by clearly articulated positions of the church. Though not as strident, they are of the same form as a Protestant introducing the "fact" that Catholics worship Mary into a discussion of comparative views on Mary.

Such polemics might not be THE problem, but they are A problem. Unity may or may not be served by dispelling erroneous ideas about each other. But it certainly cannot be served by allowing such stuff to go unchallenged and be mistaken as true.

Alice, I hope you do as you say above...or, at least, I would like to read the other article you mention. Please let me know if you find it.

Thanks.

In Christ,

Mary Jo

I agree - it should not go unchallenged on either side. While this "controversial article" circulates, it does present the opportunity to "set the record straight" by going to the primary sources, etc. and addressing those erroneous ideas or learning the rest of the details. According to what I have read, I believe FMG is receiving a lot of feedback and will be writing more on this topic. It gets some people talking with their priests, bishops, RCIA leaders, etc about the current condition of the Church, the "two lungs", the current Pope's position toward the Orthodox and vice versa. Some curious souls may even ask, "Hey, what about those Eastern Catholics? Any churches in this diocese?" ... I hope so!

Well - I do not agree with some of what you say.

But I understand your position - and kind of like you anyway.



Cheers.
-ray

Later on, when I thought of this "I normally post infrequently" I laughed a bit.

You did real good Woody. I felt I had to reply so you convinced me - that you had some brains. You even put your dukes up well.

Please don't confuse me with anyone who matters. I am right today and wrong tomorrow. I am very willing to tell everyone how to live life but I fail to live even the way I think I should.

This dicussion board is less than dust in the wind. The little electrons skittle away within weeks.


Nice to meet you.

-ray

Good to meet you, too, Ray!

I like what an evangelist friend has said, "If Christians disagree, they need not be disagreeable. In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity". I apologize if I have come over as being "disagreeable" in this discussion; I confess that my post was a bit "snappy". We all have blindspots and especially need to hear the whole story and learn from one another. Someone's view may pick up right where our own field of vision ends. This must be the Lord's design so that we truly build one another up rather than just "limp along" without one another. While some things said here may drift away and some Gordian knots may never get untied this side of Heaven, I do know some lasting friendships can begin here in the company of our Lord's son's and daughters.

I noticed in a post under another topic that you have been looking for work; will be praying that our Lord would open a door in this regard very soon!

Your friend and brother in Christ,

Woody

Wow

wow.

Those words were put into your mouth. How does it feel when God uses you ? and you have no clue that he has done that. Because I am telling you that he did. And in my experience � God only uses people who are, what I call, transparent, to his will. They are clean of conscience to such a degree (but they may not know that themselves) that they do as he wishes � and they have no clue � no indication � what God had done through them. They present no obstacles to his own spiritual movements and so that are mostly unaware (and that keeps them safe from pride) when God uses them for somthing.

No need to pray for a job for me. I do not believe in beating down his door. He knows all about it and - he himself is the one holding things up. Cathy and I know that for a fact. This jobless thing has gone far beyond chance or coincidence and probability. I shall not explain why. That would be too long a story. But I am hemmed in on every side.

Do you remember in Exodus - after God appointed Moses � well that night Moses struggled with a stranger who was trying to kill him - and his wife did something (I forgot what) that saved him. Well - God himself - was trying to kill Moses - is the point of the narration. Without looking up the narration - she did something with blood... that saved his life. Itis of course all spiritualy symbolic and has a spritual meaning.

The point of the narration being that if God is really going to �clean you up� for heaven � we should also expect times in which he himself � crushes you. No man is as honest with his own soul � as when every turn is blocked � and every remedy is useless. Only then � when all he can do fail � and even human hope is extinguished � does a man become honest with himself. And that is something that has to be arranged for us because we can not go there by our own will poser or any methods. God himself must bring it.

Well God could certainly make my life smooth (and at times has). And if I pray for something for someone else - his reply is so astonishing immediate � that I am not surprised any more and in fact am now used to it. I mean real prayer � not something one plans or intends to do � but a prayer which bubbles up from the heart with no forethought to it. It is not something one can do by any kind of forethought � it is something that just happens as natural as anything.

Anyway - like everyone else - I often pray in ways that I am telling him how to run things for my benefit - and he seldom answers those. So I try not to wind myself up. Faith is not something we ourselves build up � but something that ... he himself plants. And so many times we obstruct real faith by our own efforts to build it up. Sure - I pray hard for days and do every emotion I can to try to get him to "right things" � do my best to pick just the right words - but he refuses. So I have learned that I can not pressure him. Working myself up into pleading stronger � is a waste of time. He only allows that for the spiritually young and fragile. It really doesn�t fool him � as much as it fools us.

So as regards my present troubles � I do not know why God is doing this to me � I see no purpose in it � I can think of no lesson being taught � and Cathy and I are even getting tired of trying to figure it out - I now know that - there are some Gordian knots that will not be untied until we enter heaven after death.

There is no such thing as coincidence. Coincidence and chance is what we call God�s acting - when we ourselves have no clue as to what or why - he is doing.

But often, if one takes the grand view of the seemingly unconnected events of life � one can recognize that these events are related like chess pieces being moved on a chess board.

So while, in the last few weeks I have certainly given up on asking God for anything at all � ceased my side of the conversation and am ignoring him - apparently he has not ceased his own side of the conversation. You see he used you � to tell me - that he is not going to explain why he is doing this � and I will not understand why he is doing it � until I understand it in heaven.

You see the term �Gordian knot� has always had a special meaning between him and myself. Only he would know to use it, at this particular time, to grab my attention. And one of the last things I had said to him was that this whole thing about him preventing me form finding work (and the depletion of our money) was a Gordian knot that I can not untie.

So just let him know that I am not speaking to him just yet � like the Jews who think nothing of arguing with God � I have a bone to pick with him. And his use of you, while impressive, is not going to relieve my spirit right now.

I am done with emotion, pleading, and even anger � and now I wait patiently with little expectations � until he is done with whatever it is � that he is doing. I can not fight him � and I can not move him. So I must wait while he finished it. But I do not see how all this is doing me any good.

-ray

Brother Ray,

I always remember Job when things get rough, and also I usally read the life of Antony...again.

james

Thanks for the advise