www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Dormition/Assumption

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

DTBrown wrote:"...one of the Apostles, who had been absent from the burial of the life-giving body, arrived on the third day, he was greatly grieved and distressed..."

Holy Tradition tells us that this was St.Thomas and that when the tomb was opened there was the fragrance of fresh flowers, hence the blessing of flowers on this Feast.

When you look at an ikon of the Dormition, you will find only 11 Apostles.

JThur wrote:"...I'm still trying to figure out how the Apostles came from all over the earth to her burial on clouds..."

Holy Traditions tells us that the Apostles were brought to the bedside of the Mother of God by Angels. What better way to depict them? I don't think we could use Southwest or USAIR...

Hope this helps...

mark

Heresy is certainly not the word one should use in regards to this teaching (that an Orthodox Christian is not obligated to accept the bodily assumption of the Theotokos).

The teacher first needs to be corrected by proper ecclesial authority.

I like to know when I'm in error, especially since I teach (even when not asked to . So far, none of my superiors in several jurisdictions have corrected me on this point.


Furthermore, an incorrect teaching needs to lead to a schism before the teaching may be properly called a heresy and the teacher may properly be called a heretic. Up until the schism, it is just an incorrect teaching and and erring, and perhaps even disobedient, teacher.

I wouldn't look for physical evidence (i.e. tombs or lack thereof) to inform our faith. Faith indeed is trust in the unseen.

Yes, God has the physical ability to move people around the earth, even without angels or clouds, should he so choose.

The real question is what does "translated to life" mean since it is applied to several of the holies (saints)? We know that it is not the resurrection, since Christ "is the first fruits" of that resurrection to come.

It doesn't sound simply like sheol/the grave.

That has been the point all along. That God has marked the dormitions of several of the most righteous in a way that His Church calls "translated to life." In the first 800 years of patristic commentary, that did not imply a bodily assumption into heaven.

When we translate something, it implies that we change its form (translate a document from Hebrew into English) but maintain its basic meaning.

Somewhere in there is the answer (which I don't have). Thank God that we are Orthodox and still know that we don't know everything.

On the Eve of the Dormition of the Theotokos,
In Christ,
Andrew

Dear All,

Blessed Feastday Greetings!!

Just to add to this interesting & wonderful discussion, in our monastic office, which borrows from ancient & medieval sources, the Assumption of Mary - body and soul - into heaven is significant because it gives us a glimpse into or foretaste of our own ultimate destiny as disciples of the Lord. Since we profess the resurrection of the dead in a glorified body, IMHO to omit the Blessed Virgin's bodily assumption weakens part of the meaning of this feast.

PAX

P.S. This day is special for our monastery in that customarily we receive new members on this feast. This year we have 2 new postulants, 3 novices, and 2 brothers making their simple profession of monastic vows. It is my 5th anniversary of profession!

P.P.S. As an added treat, here is a picture of one of the murals in our abbey church. This was painted sometime between 1893-1896. It's unique in that it shows the Dormition, rather than the Assumption (Mary rising in the clouds) When I give tours this mural always elicts comments.

[Linked Image]

Medved & Incognitus,

Check out this icon:

[Linked Image]

It shows St. Thomas finding the flowers in Our Lady's empty tomb and the Blessed Mother giving the apostle her "girdle" (sometimes called a cincture - is this a zone ? )

PAX

Blessed Feastday to you Benedictine,

Thank you for the beautiful mural.


james

Such beautiful icons! Thanks for those!

Andrew,

I guess I can't understand your point. The liturgical texts plainly speak of the body of the Theotokos being translated to Heaven. What else can that mean than that the body of the Theotokos did not decay in a grave but was taken to Heaven?

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

Here's one of my fav ikons of the Dormition, I just like the Angel with the Sword...

http://www.novgorod.ru/eng/hist/icongall/i315.htm

Don't forget your flowers today!!!

Blessings!!

mark

Dear Benedictine,

Yes, a 'zone' or 'zoni' is a belt, in Greek.
In Christ,
Alice

Kontakion:

Neither the grave nor death could contain the Theotokos, the unshakable
hope, ever vigilant in intercession and protection. As Mother of life, He
who dwelt in the ever-virginal womb transposed her to life.

Reading:

Concerning the Dormition of the Theotokos, this is what the Church has
received from ancient times from the tradition of the Fathers. When the time
drew nigh that our Savior was well-pleased to take His Mother to Himself, He
declared unto her through an Angel that three days hence, He would translate
her from this temporal life to eternity and bliss. On hearing this, she went
up with haste to the Mount of Olives, where she prayed continuously. Giving
thanks to God, she returned to her house and prepared whatever was necessary
for her burial. While these things were taking place, clouds caught up the
Apostles from the ends of the earth, where each one happened to be
preaching, and brought them at once to the house of the Mother of God, who
informed them of the cause of their sudden gathering. As a mother, she
consoled them in their affliction as was meet, and then raised her hands to
Heaven and prayed for the peace of the world. She blessed the Apostles, and,
reclining upon her bed with seemliness, gave up her all-holy spirit into the
hands of her Son and God.

With reverence and many lights, and chanting burial hymns, the Apostles took
up that God-receiving body and brought it to the sepulcher, while the Angels
from Heaven chanted with them, and sent forth her who is higher than the
Cherubim. But one Jew, moved by malice, audaciously stretched forth his hand
upon the bed and immediately received from divine judgment the wages of his
audacity. Those daring hands were severed by an invisible blow. But when he
repented and asked forgiveness, his hands were restored. When they had
reached the place called Gethsemane, they buried there with honor the
all-immaculate body of the Theotokos, which was the source of Life. But on
the third day after the burial, when they were eating together, and raised
up the artos (bread) in Jesus' Name, as was their custom, the Theotokos
appeared in the air, saying "Rejoice" to them. From this they learned
concerning the bodily translation of the Theotokos into the Heavens.

These things has the Church received from the traditions of the Fathers, who
have composed many hymns out of reverence, to the glory of the Mother of our
God.

From the verses on "Lord I call...":

"your dwelling is in Gethsemane"

This subject has neither been fully settled, nor need it be. The texts do not attempt to answer all of our questions.

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew,

I didn't understand the application of your citation. Could you explain, please?

Thanks!

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dear David,

Sorry for being shortwinded! .

Some hold that she was burried and that her body remained at Gethsemane (I don't pretend to know). So this verse emphasizes that, while not neglecting the idea that she was translated to life (and I don't know exactly what that means either).

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew,

I looked for that in the section you refer to and missed it. Perhaps I overlooked something. Could you post the reference along with some context? I find it hard to believe that the liturgical texts allow for the idea that the body of the Theotokos remained in the grave.

Thanks!

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

We need to set the record straight on this matter...

Andrew has imposed some unknown current controversy on the Church regarding the bodily translation of the Most Holy Mother of God within Orthodoxy. I am here to tell you that this controversy does not exist except in the mind of its detractors. The teaching of the Church is clear, our Most Holy Lady's body was not found in the tomb when Thomas went to venerate her.

While I can surely remind everyone that this is the universal teaching of the Orthodox faith, I will use the materials specifically published by the Orthodox Church in America to show that this is indeed the teachings of the Church. Let's also repudiate the rhetoric that there is some conspiracy to appease formerly Protestant converts that have embraced Orthodox Christianity, but somehow have "problems" with Mary. This is utter nonsense.

Due to the length of the articles, I'll only post short quotes, but I encourage everyone to read the full articles, so that there be no doubt in anyone's mind.

Let there be no doubt whatsoever. Orthodox Christianity teaches clearly that the Mother of God was taken bodily by her Son into heaven. This is the testimony of the liturgical texts and the Fathers.

Priest Thomas Soroka
St. Nicholas Orthodox Church

Dear Father Thomas:

With all due respect, I would like to point out that:

the Rev. Theodore Pulcini of the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America published, through Conciliar Press in 1995, a small book titled, "Orthodoxy and Catholicism: What are the differences?" In this widely-distributed book (being used as a catechetical tool in my home parish, amongst others) he points out that the bodily assumption of the Theotokos is a widely-held and respected opinion in Orthodoxy, but certainly not a belief obligatory on the road to salvation.

One year later, in 1996, St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary, the President of which is the Metropolitan of the Othodox Church in America, offered him a full-time professorship. The Dean at that time was the dogmatically superlative Fr. Thomas Hopko, for whom I have the utmost respect.

In fact, I bought my copy of Fr. Pulcini's book at the SVS Bookstore!

Is something wrong with this picture? Was it a major oversight? Did they not review his primary and most recently published work? Did they deem his error too insignificant? I think that you may want to make some inquiries in this direction.

With love in Christ,
Andrew