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Hello! I'm very confused about a few things and really need some help in finding out the answers..
I was baptized in the Greek Orthodox Church but raised in the Catholic Church (received both First Communion and Confirmation). I've discussed this issue with 3 different priests (2 Catholic, 1 Greek Orthodox) but still do not know what religion I fall under. Each told me something different. I don't know if I'm Greek Orthodox b/c that's what I was baptized as, or Roman Catholic b/c that's what my actual upbringing was, OR Greek Catholic. Please Help me to understand!

Shlomo Edge,
Well I would consult a Canon Lawyer from either Church. First you have to understand, that if you received baptism in the Greek Orthodox Church, then you also received Chrismation (Confirmation) and "First" Communion at the same time.

If your mother was Greek Orthodox then you would be Roman Catholic because that is the Church of your father. All the Sacrements would be valid.

If you are over the age of 14 you can ask for a change of Ritual Churches.

I hoped I have helped a little.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Thank you for the help. My Father is the Greek Orthodox and my Mother the Roman Catholic. So, even though my upbringing is Roman Catholic, I would still be considered to be Greek Orthodox in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church? I think I will take your advice and contact a Canon Lawyer from each church. Thanks again

Hello Edge, and welcome to the Forum!

It sounds to me like you are a little confused about the structure of the Catholic communion of churches. It also seems to me that your first Holy Communion and Confirmation were not necessary, because the Catholic communion of churches recognizes the Mysteries of the Greek Orthodox church.

In the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches communion and confirmation are administered at the time of baptism (except in those Eastern Catholic parishes that are still Latinized). So you were already Chrismated (confirmed) when you were baptized.

Since you were raised as a Catholic the only question is what ritual church you belong to, either Greek Catholic or Roman Catholic. That is the purpose of consulting a Canon Lawyer as Yuhannon suggests. If your father is (or was) Greek Orthodox you would be a Greek Catholic. If your father is/was Roman Catholic you would be a Roman Catholic.

There are literally hundreds of thousands of Catholics that belong to one Ritual church and regularly worship in another. If you are a Greek Catholic worshipping in a Roman Catholic church it should not affect your life one bit. You may choose to worship in an Eastern Catholic church if there is one in your area, you wouldn't regret it.

Michael

Edge,

With all due respect to my brother, Yuhannon, let's start at a more basic point than consulting a canon lawyer of each church (that's a bit more bother than walking over to the law offices of joe smith).

Firstly, unless something has intervened, about which you are unaware, you are Greek Orthodox. The fact that you were reared in a Latin setting doesn't change that, unless your parents made (and communicated to a priest) a conscious choice to change your (if not their own) Church.

The question of where you were baptized should have arisen when you were to recieve First Communion and Confirmation -since documentation of baptism is supposed to be produced in preparation for receiving those sacraments. You may want to check with your mother as to whether that was the case, what discussion ensued if so, and whether anything was formally done to address the disparity between Church of initiation and Church of practice.

If somehow, that was overlooked or mishandled (as seems likely, since you had already been communed and chrismated at baptism and didn't need to have them repeated), then the question now is "what do (I) want to be?". Obviously, if you wish to return to the Church of your baptism, you need to find yourself a Greek Orthodox parish, present documentation to the pastor of your baptism, and work with him to acquaint yourself with your faith.

Should you wish to continue in the Church in which you were raised, then the issue is whether you choose to do so in the Latin or an Eastern Church. Under Canon Law, as one entering communion from Greek Orthodoxy, you would be received as a member of the Byzantine Greek Catholic Church. The problem is that there is neither a Greek Catholic jurisdiction nor any Greek Catholic parishes in the US. Greek Catholics in the US are, therefore, technically subject to the jurisdiction of the local Latin ordinary (although, in practice, they are as likely to affiliate themselves with a local parish of one of the other Byzantine Catholic Churchs).

Decide first, which do you want to be - Latin or Eastern? Although you were raised Latin, I suspect you may have leanings to the East - which is what brought you here. Obviously, you are familiar with the Latin Church; you may want to know more about the Eastern Church prior to making a decision.

Living in Michigan, you're in a good place to explore the Eastern Churches, as almost every Eastern Catholic Church with a presence in the US (except the Byzantine Italo-Greek-Albanians and Russians} is represented in the state. Depending on where you live, there are Melkite, Romanian, Ruthenian, and Ukrainian Catholic parishes available to you; those are of the Byzantine Rite (the Rite of your Greek Orthodox ancestry). There are also parishes of the Armenian, Chaldean, Maronite, Syriac, Syro-Malabarese, and Syro-Malankarese Catholic Churches. A virtually complete list (the Syriac and Syro-Malabar parishes aren't listed yet) is at:

Unofficial Directory of Eastern Catholic Churches - Michigan [crosslink.net]

Whichever you decide, you will want to contact the chancery of the Latin diocese in which you live. Inform them of your circumstances and that you wish to be formally accepted into the Catholic Church, as: (1) a Greek Catholic subject to the Latin ordinary; (2) a Latin Catholic; or (3) a member of another Eastern Catholic Church. If the latter, you technically need permission of the Latin ordinary to do so, as well as permision from the ordinary of the Eastern Church into which you seek to be accepted. My suspicion is that the Latin chancery can and will facilitate the process, so that you are accepted directly into the Eastern Church's jurisdiction.

That said, and it being the formal process that should be followed, you could probably short-circuit it and go directly to/through the relevant Eastern Catholic eparchy, if it's your desire to become an Eastern Catholic.

Hope this helps.

God grant you many years,

Neil

Edge,
My upbringing was similiar to yours. I was baptised Byzantine Catholic as per my father's insistence. Funny because my mother was the church goer in the family, and my father was an "occasional" at best. My mom is RC, and thats the church I grew up with. BUT, now my adult faith has called me to the Byzantine Rite. I guess I feel it's part of who I am, rgardless of my RC upbringing. I still share my time between Roman Catholic and Byzantine Catholic as my wife is RC. I love both and can appreciate the differences. My heart is with the Byzantine Rite. Follow your heart. Learn
David

I agree mostly with David.

Keep it simple.

Ask mom and dad - what you are (if they had made an offcial moves) and then decide what you want to be.

Bottom line is you are Catholic (universal) you have satisfied the requirments of both. Select one - bind yourself to it - and keep your heart open to the other.

The unity of the entire Church comes alive in such as you and transends all 'paper work'. And you can thank your parents for living out that unity before you.

-ray

I think we must differenciate between Rite (Byzantine or Latin) and Church affiliation (Orthodox or Catholic).

It was my understanding that if you are Baptised in any Eastern Orthodox Church you are a member of that Church until you enter Communion with the Catholic Church. And then when received into the Catholic Church from an Eastern Orthodox Church you become Catholic but preserve the rite in which your Eastern Church and become part of the Catholic branch of that Eastern Church.

Just as some Orthodox Churches will always apply the Sacrament of Confirmation to converts from Catholicism (even if they had been confirmed before) as Confirmation reconciles you with the Church and gives you the grace you lacked when you were outside the Church, the Catholic Church sometimes confers the Sacrament of confirmation for the same reasons, and because in the Latin Tradition it's prefered to be confirmed by the Bishop who posesses the "fullness" of the priesthood.

In Latin America the distinction between Orthodox and Catholic is often blury. Many Orthodox go to Catholic schools, or attend RC parishes. Some even receive Confirmation once again, with the permission of the parents in many cases.

Now, in these cases, those who prefer to remain Orthodox can still be considered Orthodox because it was not their will to leave the Orthodox Church and join the RC in an explicit way. At the same time if you think you're Catholic yourself, the fact that you received Confirmation by a Roman Bishop is an unequivocal profession of communion and membership with that Church.

Dear Edge, Your question actually is quite easy to answer: You are definitely Roman Catholic, simply because that is how you LIVE your faith life. It is how we LIVE our lives of faith that joins us to and places us IN COMMUNION with other Christians. Since you have lived most of your life as a Roman Catholic, that is how you should see yourself because that is the faith that your profess before the world. Just because someone is baptized Catholic or Orthodox or Presbyterian doesn't necessarily make them that. It takes much more. When we live out our faith in action and enter into communion with a community of faith, we are then one with them and share their 'Table' (Altar) and are a member of their family.

In His Holy Name,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory

Fr. Gregory's advice is right on!

If you're at heart a Roman Catholic, then it doesn't make any sense that you become an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox-you have no experience of it, and would be forcing yourself into a situation that isn't right.

From an Orthodox perspective, I think this kind of legalism makes Eastern Catholicism appear
strange. No layman should have to go through the purgatorial hoops of contacting canon lawyers.
This nonsense about classifying people by Rite can certainly lead to confusion and doubt about which Church to belong to-its bureaucratic and takes away from any semblance of freedom.

I understand that the strict rules for Orthodox converts are meant to pad the numbers of Byzantine Catholics, but not every Orthodox convert may want to be Byzantine. Catholic is Catholic. While a Rite is not just a liturgical thing-it also dictates your lifestyle and worldview-its also not an unrepeatable sacrament either. Also, I suppose it doesn't help that the Eastern Catholics have a Code of Canon Law.

Orthodox S.

Yes, I would agree that it appears legalistic.

As for the Canon lawyer and all that, the parish priest should be able to make the determination, the priest or bishop can contact the Canon lawyer if he's not sure (though I cannot see why not), but it really shouldn't be necessary for the layperson to be involved.

Of course, Edge could just chose to be a Roman Catholic, it's not like Edge has no choice in the matter. It's not like suddenly discovering you were adopted! I think the priests questioned may be puzzled as to why it seems so important.

However, the intent is to protect each church from being subsumed into the much larger, dominant church. By simply taking the convert into the Roman church that convert is at risk of losing his/her own tradition, which they have a right to practice. I am appalled that Edge was re-Chrismated, the Orthodox sacraments should be assumed to be valid.

The church affiliation passes through the father.

It's a form of respect, no matter how it might appear to you. A Catholic of any church whatever is entititled to take his/her mysteries in any other Catholic church whatever, for as long as they might live and never fear to lose membership in the church of origin. This applies to members of all Catholic churches whether they have sufficient numbers to support a parish of their own or not.

In the USA there are several thousand Catholics of Greek descent, most have been accepted into the Catholic Communion through the Latin church or are descendants of Greeks who have done so. These people are scattered and currently do not have a Greek Catholic hierarchy established for them here. They will not lose their rights to be Greek Catholics even if they take all of their sacraments in the Roman church.

For example, if I as Roman Catholic were to move to an area where there were mostly Syro-Malabar churches, or Maronite churches or Chaldean churches I could worship with them my entire life, and my children could as well, and always know that I would be a Roman Catholic until or unless the day should come when I may wish of my own accord to change to the other jurisdiction.

My children could return to the USA with full knowledge that their baptism, Chrismation and other Mysteries were all validly conferred, and they would not have to repeat them in the Roman church back home.

I myself don't think it needs to be so confusing, but each Sui Iuris church must know that it's members will be well cared for and not poached, and that's how it's done.


In Christ,
Michael

I'm not sure of a few things, so I'll give some examples:

Lets say a member of the Antiochian WR decides that he likes Byzantine spirituality more than Western-he starts attending an OCA church, gradually becomes more Eastern in his prayer life, and later on becomes fully adjusted. Is he still an Antiochian WR, even though the Orthodox Church has no concept of having to officially change rites?

What if I'm born in Boston, moved away when I was 18, and lived the rest of my life in Denver. Would I still consider myself a resident of Boston when I'm 50? Do I need a notice from the mayor of Boston?


If Eastern Catholics are really concerned about attrition to the RCC, then they should junk their watered down, Latinized way of doing things ASAP.


All the best,
OS

Glory to Jesus Christ!

No, it's more like if your father was ROCA but you were raised where they didn't have a parish, so you were Chrismated by the Antiochian WR.

Later you are able to return to ROCA and they would not re-Chrismate you out of the high regard the two churches have for each other , the Antiochian church would be the caretaker for you as a ROCA member for as long as you need them.

In Christ,
Michael, that sinner