www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Benedict XVI gets the green light from MP

posted on ANSA.IT
(I guess Alessio is Italian for Alexy)

MOSCOW - the patriarch of Moscow Alessio II has just said he is giving the green light to a visit from Benedict XVI in Russia if the new pope shows interest. “The force of will, wisdom, and tact before the Russian Orthodox Church will overcome current things held in constrast...My meeting with the new representative of the Roman Catholic Church” said Alessio II in the course of an interview published in the daily paper Kommersant, “will depend on his approach to the Russian Orthodox Church, on how much will, wisdom, and tact he manifests in order to resolve the problems currently existing between the two churches. Our meeting, if we are to have it, should testify to the Christian community and to the entire world that our relationships have changed for the better, that they have overcome the difficulties of previous years.
The patriarch, who impeded a yearned-for visit to Russia by John Paul II now deceased, - praises in an extremely warm way the new Pope for his powerful "intellect' and for his courageous defence of 'traditional Christian values.' “All the Christian world,” added the orthodox patriarch, “respects him. Without doubt,” -he says, “theological divergences exist. But as far as our views on modern society, secularization and moral relativism, the dangerous erosion of Christian doctrine and many other contemporary problems our points of view are very close.”. Extremely critical of “Catholic proselytism in Russia and the Ukraine, Alessio II expresses hope that the new Pope “does all in his power to improve relations with the Russian Orthodox.”

PPPPFFFFTTTT!!!

Patriarch Alexy II has shown lack of Christian charity towards John Paul II, and now that he fell asleep, he gives a green light to Benedict XVI. What a hypocrite and how horrible!

John Paul II has no special motives towards Russia except to visit the Catholics in that country. And JPII has shown great respect for Russia by waiting for Alexy's invitation. JPII can go "heck with you, I'm coming to Russia whether you like it or not" but he never did, although he could have.

Alexy has shown nothing but bitter contempt. I have lost respect for him entirely. I'm sorry to say.

To me, it doesn't matter where the Pope came from, to me, a Pope is a Pope, Successor of St. Peter.

I hope that Benedict XVI will NOT go to Russia.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Spdundas,
> Patriarch Alexy II has shown lack of Christian
> charity towards John Paul II ...

Is that so? Just because Patriarch Alexis perceives that the RC Church is proselytizing in Russia and drawing away his flock from the Orthodox Church, you call this confessor for the faith "uncharitable"!

> ... To me, it doesn't matter where the Pope
> came from, to me, a Pope is a Pope, Successor
> of St. Peter.

It's a free society, and you are entitled to your opinions on this earth, but to me, to Patriarch Alexis, and Orthodox Christians in general, the Pope of Rome ceased being the successor of St. Peter when he ceased being Orthodox.

While I try to abstain from getting involved in apologetics, while preparing for our annual celebration of the Passion and Resurrection, I can not stand to see the Church mocked by you.

Photius, Reader

Are we seriously going to get into this with each other? I'm not taking sides...yet, but if this escalates I just might. However, I would much rather we quash this beef now before people start getting ill-tempered.

The Moscow Patriarchate is seeking an alliance with Rome against the relativist dictatorship sweeping through Europe. Regardless of whether or not Pope John Paul the Great had die to bring it about Alexy II has changed his stance towards Rome. This is an opportunity we cannot hinder by arguing needlesly amongst ourselves, particularly when Moscow is imploring us to team up against the culture of death.

If you two cannot apologise to one another at least agree to a cease fire before this boils over into an all out war.

> Are we seriously going to get into this with each other?...

Myles, forgive me. I need to get back to Church, and likely won't be posting much in the next few days. It does bother me to hear mud slung at the Orthodox Church, and I do feel honor bound to defend Her, but here is not the place, I must realize.

Photiu, Reader

My comments were not a one sided attack on you Photius. I have LONGED for the kind of response that Moscow is giving to Rome at present, which is why passions flaring up between yourself and Spundas were so worrying to myself. My dream is to see the wings of the Church fly together again. The positive reaction of Moscow to Benedict XVI is for me a step in the right direction and another thread on: Catholics right, Orthodox wrong or vice versa are not best suited to this time when both Benedict XVI and Alexy II are encouraging a partnership for the sake of the future of Christianity in Europe. Living here in the midst of the secularism things like this are like beacons of light in epoch of darkness. Thus a Byzantine-Byzantine argument at present would be like a smack in the teeth for me.

How is Rome proselytizing in Russia if there were ALREADY Catholics there?

Mind you, Russia is in serious spiritual trouble after a long era of atheistic communism. Just because the USSR fell and there are spiritual awakening in Russia does not in anyway mean that there are any proselytizing from Catholics in Russia. Spiritual awakening means growth of Churches in Russia is NOT the same thing as proselytizing.

If you think there are some proselytizing of Catholics in Russia, then I'd say that the Russian Orthodox should GET OUT of USA, Central America, South America and Austrailia and cease Russian Orthodox proselytizing.

How's that? Is that fair enough? I'd say it should be fair enough in your eyes since you say that Russia is "ONLY" Orthodox country (which I don't think so since there are already Catholics there).

You act like the Church OWNS a country. NOT SO! The earth as a whole is owned by G-d Himself, not Catholics, Orthodox, or anybody.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

I don't care to see mud flung at the Orthodox Church either, and I would advise against such behaviour (as Confucius might have said, man who sling mud lose ground). I also don't care to see mud flung at the Greek-Catholic Church - and that includes the absurd but often-repeated claim that the 1946 pseudo-Council of L'viv was somehow or other "canonical", even though it conformed to the canons of no Church with which I am familiar. Finally, I would say that either trying to deceive Pope Benedict or slinging mud at him are equally time-wasting - he is not easily deceived, and he has long since had ample opportunity to learn how to ignore insults.
However, we are under no obligation to join in such polemics, and it's better if we don't. Facts by all means - and during Holy Week, which it is right now, we probably have better things to do. Under all the polemics, the Moscow Patriarchate is still a Church in pain (and various professionals could easily explain how that is possible) and in need of our prayers. If we should think of her as an enemy, then we are all, being Christians, under positive orders from the Master of the House to love her still more and try to do good for her. Or to quote another dubious proverb: "love your enemies - it'll drive them nuts!"

Incognitus

Well, remember that is still a Catholic forum, and as such, we Orthodox are just guests here.

:rolleyes:

In the past, I have been harsh on Alexey. His refusal to meet with John Paul II was petty and childish. Alexey's past insistence that all Russia - and Ukraine - are Orthodox and under his control are unreasonable and silly. JPII had the right to minister to Catholics in Russia - most of whom are not ethnic Russians but rather are the descendants of Germans who emigrated under the invite of Catherine the Great or those poor souls deported by the evil Stalin.

If Alexey really wants to meet with Benedict XVI, then I think that is great. Alexey has bigger things to worry about than the Catholic Church tending to her flock in Russia. The Russian Orthodox Church has been terribly hurt by 70+ years of Communism and for the good of Russia it must recover and minister to the Russian people.

As Jesus called on all of us to do in the Scriptures, we must forgive. I can't tell others to forgive if I won't forgive.

So, let's hope the Moscow Patriarch and the Holy Father do meet and have a pleasant encounter with each other.

Maybe we should. But then come to think of it, the Catholics are not only in Russia, but also in Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, and Yugoslavia because of the Polish and the Austro-Hungarians. And as a Carpatho-Russian, I don't think much of that was voluntary or even the result of peaceful proselytism, but rather the result forced conversion. Now if some of my people have come to believe fully in this faith, then I respect that and I won't challenge their right to continue practicing it.

But I keep getting this vibe from the Catholics, that you consider us to be part of a "sister" Church, albeit somehow inferior. That's fine and dandy too, since we Orthodox have typically been very antagonistic toward you. But we're very open about our feelings toward Rome. You, on the other hand, dress your hatred toward us in flowery language and displays of magnanimity.

Granted, you have some bones to pick with us. But don't forget the skeleton that's in your own closet (the Fourth Crusade, the Polish and Hungarian aggressions against the Russians and southern Slavs, the forced deportations of the Lemkos in the 1940s, the Croatian Ustashe).

While I'd dearly love to be part of a reunited Church, it's sentiments like these that make me recall past attempts at reunion. If it does happen, I'll be open to it, but I'll also be ready to jump over to ROCOR if things don't turn out right.

And I've never seen Russian Orthodox proselytizing here in the US. Heck, I've had enough trouble, as a Russian Orthodox, finding their churches around here.

All,

I'd just like to say that is extremely lamentable that many Catholic and Orthodox laity on this Message Board seem to prefer to argue against one another rather than trying to understand and respect each other.

I've read each of the posts in regard to this subject posted by "Intrigued Latin" to best understand the feelings of the parties involved.

I understand and share some of "Spdundas" sentiments in regards to what we Roman Catholic's feel has been, "uncharitable" behavior from the Moscow Patriarchate in regard to our own Church.

As for "Photius" comments, they are totally understandable because many Russian Orthodox members feel that the Roman Catholic presence in Russia is a serious nuisance. And providing Catholic clergy for the Russian Roman Catholic community is seen by some as a guise to infiltrate Russia and unseat the MP power in that country. As a Roman Catholic I find these claims to be unfounded, yet I'm sure if I was a Russian Orthodox I would not think so.

"Myles" stated, "The positive reaction of Moscow to Benedict XVI is for me a step in the right direction" And I vehemently agree. Whether we Catholics feel that the leader of the Russian Orthodox church was uncharitable in the past we should look now to the future, and his seemingly open stance towards us.

"Incognitus" is correct in reminding us all that Holy Week celebrations are in place for some and it is best not to resort to arguments during this time, out of sheer respect for each other.

"Bakhtiyar" states that this is a Catholic forum and the Orthodox are guests. I think the Administrators would remind us that this is a Forum for all, and Catholics and Orthodox people are equally welcome to express their opinions here. So long as they are constructive rather than destructive.

Let us ALL remember that the one constant in our respective faiths is that Christ is the center of our lives. And as such commands us to live peacefully with one another and work out or disagreements in Christian love and charity.

May God Bless you all,

ProCatholico

PS: If you have nothing nice to say then you best keep your mouth shut!

I think that SPDundas makes a valid point. After the evil one reigned for decades in Russia, does it really matter what Apostolic church one belongs to, as long as one has found Christ and the means to salvation? Russian identity will always be overwhelmingly Orthodox, just as Irish identity will always be Roman Catholic, and the presence of either Church in either country will never really change that.

On the other hand, I don't think that we will be defending cultural/religious identities before the awesome judgement seat...nor do I think that being a card carrying Orthodox or Catholic will secure our salvation. We will be answering for our own sins and how much we loved Christ and followed His commandments *to love one another*, to spiritually uplift one another, and to carry each other's crosses.

So if my brother Orthodox wish to call me a 'Pollyanna' then so be it...I believe that love is attainable, that objectivity is attainable, and that unity is obtainable, because everything is possible with our God!

In Christ,
Alice

If Constantinople recognizes the autocephaly of a united Ukrainian Orthodox Church, alliances will probably switch and Moscow will seek understanding with the Vatican.Any thoughts?

I think it is childish if AlexyII has been playing the ethnic "Great Russians" vs. the ethnic "Poles" when he refused to allow JPII to visit the Russian Republic. Alexy II is an ethnic Estonian which makes his action even more outrageous! So now that there is a German Pope, he is willing to talk about a papal visit. That really takes the cake.

Ung-Certez