www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Benedict XVI gets the green light from MP

Dear Friends,

Well, it is good that the Moscow Patriarch is open to Pope Benedict - however that came about, it is a good thing.

IF it all comes down to the Ukrainian Catholics, I, for one, do not believe Pope Benedict XVI will somehow offer them as a sacrificial lamb for the sake of a church unity that is based on more political, rather than ecclesial, considerations.

That Ukrainian Orthodox find friends among the Ukrainian Catholics against their common enemies and those who are just antagonistic against them in general - why is that surprising?

We tend to see things in terms of struggles between religions first - and then the cultural/national factor comes into play.

That is not how things are throughout the world, however.

We've discussed those issues before and it is Holy Thursday today.

I think that we should try not to be the Pope's armchair advisors here, not get hot under the collar and try not to attack one another.

The Churches are still separated, the Filioque and the Papacy are still the chief reasons why they are still separated, and a courtesy visit to Russia by the Pope won't, in and of itself, re-establish unity.

Holy Week, remember . . .

Alex

I believe the Russian Orthodox Church was in Alaska long before Latin Catholics and Protestants began missions there. I can be wrong, but whereas the Western Catholic Church was establishing itself in the East (1784) and allowing English in the Mass, the Eastern Orthodox Church was establishing itself in the West (1794) and translating the Divine Liturgy into Aleut.

So, whose on first?

Joe

Hi,

I really couldn't care less about what Agent Drozdov has to say about a possible visit of the Pope to Russia.

This is one of the few things I could not agree with John Paul the Great, his, in my opinion, excesive deference to the Moscow Patriarchate.

Shalom,
Memo

The Catholics are. They were in the Southwest by the late 16th century and had established their extensive network of missions in California by the end of the 18th century.

If I recall correctly, St. Herman of Alaska built an organ for one of the Catholic missions.

Here we go again...

You know, the ROCOR has only recently started warming up to Agent Drozdov and I'm sure they wouldn't have appreciated a visit by the Pope very much either.

Are you mad that the Pope didn't go to Russia, that Agent Drozdov refused to meet with him, or both?

The deference the late Pope showed Agent Drozdov is only in keeping with the deference he'd shown other groups. It was a refreshing change from times past.

Just a few observations:

First, I think it unbecoming of Catholic and/or Orthodox Christians to hurl personal insults at our respective ecclesiastical leaders. Second, I find it contemptible that a Christian would refer to Patriarch Alexy as "Agent Drozdov". Although this may once have been part of the Patriarch's life, we know that Christ even embraces those who may have sought to murder (and indeed did murder) his followers. I am thinking of Saul of Tarsus, the Apostle to the Gentiles, who with Peter became the Martyrs of Rome. No doubt the community of faithful were leery of Paul because of his past, but the Lord accomplished great things through Paul's ministry. Can He not do the same through Alexy and Benedict?

Lastly, as far as Patriarch Alexy warming to a visit from Pope Benedict, perhaps there may be some heavenly assistance behind this. I am thinking there may be just a little greater intercession on the part of John Paul II in asking the Lord to allow the Church of the Third Millenium to realize what he could not- Ut unum sint!

In response to several recent posts, the most recent (quoted below) by Deacon John Montalvo:
It is Good Friday and I am saddened by those who think Our Lord needs to be crucified again.

> First, I think it unbecoming of Catholic and/or Orthodox
> Christians to hurl personal insults at our respective
> ecclesiastical leaders. Second, I find it contemptible that a
> Christian would refer to Patriarch Alexy as "Agent Drozdov".

Very true! This is not conducive to civil dialog, which is why is puzzles me that you continue:

> Although this may once have been part of the Patriarch's life,
> we know that Christ even embraces those who may have sought to
> murder (and indeed did murder) his followers.

Here's a deal, Father John. You stop insinuating that Patriarch Alexis was a KGB agent, and I'll not repeat the equally unfounded and nauseating rumors that Pope Benedict was a Nazi ("although this may once have been part of [his] life").

As a member of ROCOR, it may seem odd to some that I am defending Patriarch Alexis, but not only do I hope the parasynagogue within the Russian Church to be healed, but I'm repulsed every bit as much as a pious Catholic would be if someone were to call your pope a Nazi on this list.

In the spirit of "and let of say 'brethren!' even to those who hate us, forgiving all in the Resurrection". I wish all here a joyous Pascha,
Photius, Reader and sinner

Photius,

Lighten up! I am not the one who made the insinuation, it had already been made. As far as the Patriarch's alleged or unfounded or wrongfully assumed or(you pick the adjective) association with the KGB, my comments were directed to those who put stock in those rumours. Taken within the context of my whole post that was evident.

But it appears your response to my post had another purpose in mind- an opportunity to malign the Russian Church and the Jewish community ("parasynagogue within the Russian Church".)

I think the focus of this thread should be on seeing this meeting between Pope and Patriarch come to fruition. If not, perhaps it should be closed.

I've been rethinking this whole discourse.

Can we just focus on what's really important--spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the most effective manner possible--by doing our best to live it in our everyday lives.

Old wounds will take a long time to heal. Let's try to work together in spite of them.

Yes, I'm bitter about things (like the Unia) that happened a very long time ago. If you want to know why I hold this grudge, I'd be happy to tell you, but will refrain from doing so now. But know that when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, I still consider the Eastern-rite Catholics brothers in Christ. But for me to keep going around in circles is counterproductive.

Father John,
> ... my comments were directed to those who put stock in those
> rumours. Taken within the context of my whole post that was
> evident.

Please forgive me; my sentiment should have been directed at the original poster, not at you ... I was tired and should not have posted then.


> But it appears your response to my post had another purpose in
> mind- an opportunity to malign the Russian Church and the Jewish
> community ("parasynagogue within the Russian Church".)

This is a most odd accusation; I simply do not understand what you are trying to say! I am a member of one faction of the Russian Church and was defending her other faction, so I certainly was not maligning the Russian Church! I've written nothing about Jews or Judaism anywhere on this forum, so I am at a total loss to understand whence you conjure up the notion that I am maligning the Jewish community! Is this some sort of pun that I'm not getting (e.g., "parasynagogue" vs "Jewish synagogue")? If so, please explain, because I am to dense to get it and your comment appears to me as a gratuitous insult, but I assume it's not and that I'm missing something.


> I think the focus of this thread should be on seeing this
> meeting between Pope and Patriarch come to fruition. If not,
> perhaps it should be closed.

I've been assuming that it is about a possible meeting between Pope and Patriarch, the merits or lacked thereof therein, pro or con, not a closed assumption that the said meeting should come to fruition; if this is, indeed, a one-sided argument with an implicit "correct" answer assumed and not subject to discussion, then I should withdraw from posting further.

This morning I had a first time experience of attending the Royal Hours twice (and at the head of the cliros and canonarch for both, as well as serving as acolyte for one), first in Slavonic at my Russian parish, then in Greek at another Church 15 miles away ... and my English syntax may be suffering a trifle.

Wishing all to be deemed worthy of beholding our Saviour's Passion and Glorious Resurrection,
C prazdnikom! Kali Anastasi!
Photius, Reader and sinner

Alice,
I wish there was a symbol here for a holy kiss.
If there were more like you the split would be over.
Stephanos I

For peace of the whole world, for the wellbeing of the Holy Churches of God, and for the union of all, let us pray to the Lord!

Lord have mercy!

P.S. Pun intended.

Dear Chotkimeister:
I'm not sure I get your pun, but it is late and has been a very long Good Friday for me.

However, your translation, IMHO, is ambiguous to the point of being possibly erroneous: " ... and for the union of all men [or people] ..."; just leaving "all" may be construed as "all Churches", which is certainly not what how the original Greek reads!

To a Joyous Pascha,
Photius, Reader

--- Commence Original Message ---
For peace of the whole world, for the wellbeing of the Holy Churches of God, and for the union of all, let us pray to the Lord!

Lord have mercy!

P.S. Pun intended.

But the union "of all men" as it goes would imply that the Churches are united as well, would it not?

So the translation is pretty much OK.