www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Benedict XVI gets the green light from MP

Then I'd concede that Moscow is indeed the problem. Orthodoxy has been too adulterated by politics. And this is coming from someone who is Orthodox.

Well...I had a feeling this thread would degenerate into mud slinging nonsense. Everyone using the famous 'p' word. I'm surprised nobody has used 'Uniatism' yet. Maybe thats one to come in the next round, eh? Oooh and guess what we've gone back to the Crusades? Shall I be the first to mention the massacre of the Westerners in Constantinople in 1182 or should I wait for someone else to do it...WHOOPS, looks like I just did. *sighs*

Now what was that John Paul II said about 'purification of memory'??

I could go on trading insults with the Orthodox. My knowledge of history is good enough to go blow for blow for every crime committed by the Western Church over the past millenia. But the question is? Why would I want to?

The Christianity in the continent I live on is crumbling and the only thing you guys can do is argue amongst yourselves over who did what a few centuries ago? And who is stealing who's flock? By all means if the Orthodox want to convert the Protestants of England please come. Its better than seeing this country, the dowry of Mary, fall further down the hole of neo-paganism.

I really dont get this attitude that simply refuses to forgive. What kind of sacrifces are going to be offering if we're offering them without mercy? Its taken me AGES to see it because I'm so much of a philosopher that I only do what looks logical on the page of a book. But having read this thread I really understand WHY people think Christianity is SUCH A JOKE!! And if it wasnt so sad it wouldnt even be funny. We're still unable to forgive each other for things that happened centuries ago. Things that, again, have nothing to do with Theology.

What was that Jesus said about the world knowing us by our love for one another. Heck right now if I didnt love the guy so much I'd just leave the Church because this is nonsense. Absolute nonsense.

I give up...

Then maybe we should look at Aleksy as a German rather than a Russian. Don't Germans and Poles have some sort of rivalry as well?

Actually, I almost used both.

Well there ya have it folks!

When president Yuschenko of Ukraine was in Boston recently to receive the Courage for Freedom medal from Caroline Kennedy (@ the JFK library) there was much discussion of the pseudo-Sobor of 1946 at which the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic (Byzantine rite) Church was liquidated, and it's remnants forced into an 'unholy' union with the Russian Orthodox Church.

Much of the discussion centered on the fate of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Metropolitan (Archbishop, Cardinal, and Patriarch) Josyf Slipy who had been arrested by the Soviets in April, 1945 in St-Georges Cathedral in Lviv, Western Ukraine. He spent the next 18 years of his life in confinement, imprisonment, and forced labor in Siberia. John F. Kennedy at the request of John XXIII negotiated his release in January 1963 from Soviet captivity so that he could attend the Second Vatican Council. Nobody (including Soviets, Roman Curia, and Ukrainian Catholics) expected him to live more than a year due to poor health. Ironically, it was JFK and Pope John XXIII who died before the year ended and Patriarch Josyf (Slipyj) who live for 21 more years.

Of particular interest to the crowd attending the award ceremony at the JFK library was the fact that Patriarch Slipyj would consecrate a Ukrainian Greek Catholic monk by the name of Lubomyr Husar as 'Bishop for Ukraine'. Lubomyr Husar was designated as THE mortal who would one day establish the Patriarchate of the World's largest Orthodox Church. In essense, JFK freed an Archbishop from a Soviet Gulag, who would then consecrate a man, who may some day become the leader of the world's largest Orthodox Church.

Everyone who heard the story was amazed to say the least. The Kennedy's in particular were thrilled to find out that the legacy JFK would live on in such a monumental way over two generations after his death. The Boston Globe (New England's largest newpaer) found the story interesting but was not versed enough in the particular details of the history to run a story immediately. To it's credit, 4 days later on the front cover of Saturday's edition, the main color photo was of the 'Eastern Catholics' saying prayers over the casket of the late Pope. The extra large picture included all of the Eastern hierarchs, most of the Latin Cardinals, and many of the special guests who were present (including president Bush, etc...). Patriarch Lubomyr (Husar) could be clearly seen as well as many other nobable hierarchs.

Two days later President Yuschenko in his speach to the combined Houses of Congress paid special homage to JFK for having released Patriarch Josyf by using two of his more famous quotes. He also praised John Paul II for his assistance in leading Ukraine to the path of freedom and truth.

The above additions to his speach were last minute and the press did not seem to pick up on them (or so we thought). Later that week, in Rome, president Yuschenko met with president Bill Clinton for dinner following the papal funeral. Of course the opening discussion was about the UGCC and it's history. It now seems that the Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate has become 'breaking news' in Washington.

Eye on Eurasia: A U.S. patriarch in Kiev [washingtontimes.com]

The last paragraph is perhaps the most interesting. The person intervied states that if Ukraine is lost, then "the last advance fortress of the Russian World will be dismembered, and Russia which will in this case lose it's ontological basis will lose it's sovereignty as well". My Ukrainian friends at the Embassy have interpreted this to mean that Russia will revert to it's pre 1686 days of being Muscovy, no longer the center of Rus Christianity, but a simply one of the many daughter eparchies.

Can somebody comment on this stament ?

I.F.

What is lacking in the article that started this thread is the fact that Alexy II will meet with Benedict XVI only after the "Ukrainian Greek Catholic Status" is resolved. The story is available at the RISU news service. So there has really been no shift in attitude. Alexy II continues to try to be a bully and hopefully Benedict XVI will be a formidable opponent. And before anyone misinterprets my comment, it is not in any way intended against Orthodoxy but against one individual who consistently acts in a less than Christian manner.

I don't think I quite understand this part.

And I like how the article seems to revel at the possible "dismemberment" of the Russian Orthodox Church.

This is the sort of talk that makes a Russian Orthodox person unfriendly to the prospect of reunion.

The ethnicism so prevalent in Orthodoxy can't be demonstrated more clearly than the situation with Ukraine. Come on, Ukrainian Orthodox joining forces with Ukrainian Catholics against the Russian Orthodox?

Who am I trying to kid? There is no sense of brotherhood amongst the Orthodox. The more I think of it, the more irritated I get.

And about this unholy alliance of 1946. What was up, then, in 1596 and in 1646? I forgot, the last two were centuries ago, water under the bridge.

-bakhtiyar, who holds the sentiment that Ukraine is the mother of Russia and as such, should be home to the Russian capital and the Russian Orthodox patriarchate.

See, now this is different. I can agree with you to some extent here.

Just a Byzantine Catholic here who would like to add his two cents to the current discussion.

First of all, both sides are absolutely right, as well as absolutely wrong.

The Eastern Catholic churches share many great traditions with the Orthodox Church; the Creed sin filioque, Divine Liturgy, etc. The Orthodox Church has done a wonderful job of keeping its traditions intact, even when Roman Catholics changed the Creed at the behest of Holy Roman Emperors (the filioque), even when Rome looked the other way as Constantinople was destroyed, leading the way to Turkish expansion and Venetian merchants' superiority in Mediterranean trading.

Unfortunately, The Romans have also been on the losing side occassionally, such as with the way the former Holy Father was treated by Moscow. Yes, I understand the Patriarch's problem (and as someone who likes the idea of the seperate churches within the Church of Christ representing the local culture, I would tend to side with Alexei in that particular matter). However, converting people to Christianity after they've spent nearly a century under atheistic despotic rule is hardly reason to show a lack of love for the Pope of Rome - indeed, as Christians we ought to strive to show love for all people at all times.

Moreover, both sides of this situation have played politics with eachother and those caught inbetween (ie, the Eastern Catholic churches). For example, the fate of the Eastern Catholic churches being discussed by the two patriarchs, without the inclusion of us or our metropolitan (I don't know which Eastern Catholics have what leadership specifically, but that's besides the point).

In short, how about both sides trade hostages, forget about whatever they're mad about, and remember just they're busy fighting doesn't mean there isn't anyone getting squished between them.

Christos Voskres!

Amen!

But then you'll always have someone who still has a problem with whatever, dredge it up, someone else will respond in kind, and then in the end, everyone's got their knickers in a knot.

Voistinu voskrese! (although technically I'm not supposed to say that until next week)

Yeah, that's the problem with being down here on Earth...stupid apple...

By the way, I appreciate that sign of respect between churches, especially on this thread.

0 Lord and King, grant me the grace to be aware of my sins and not to judge my brother; for You are blessed now and ever and forever. Amen.

Dear Friends,
I came into work this morning an noticed that I had 26 replies to my post. I immediately said to myself.. "Wow, that's great" Little did I know it would spark this type of discussion.
I posted this will good intention, to indicate that as Alice said "Unity IS possible".
In my heart I know that this is a good thing. (regardless of what has happened between the two Churches in the past)
Can we not just see this for what it is... A step forward in the right direction.
Can we not forgive each other for the sins committed by each of us ?
Is this not one of the main tenets of our Christian faith ?

It appears to me that Patriarch Alexy is extending his hand to Pope Benedict XVI in charity and to me that indicates HOPE. Nothing more, nothing less.
As long as we have HOPE in our faith, Anything is possible.

Brad - an optimist.

Bakhtiyar,

You ask:

"And about this unholy alliance of 1946. What was up, then, in 1596 and in 1646? I forgot, the last two were centuries ago, water under the bridge."

You answered your own question. The Unions of Brest and Uzhorod are 409 and 359 years past. The past cannot be undone. The Pseudo-synod of 1946 is but 59 years past and people affected by it are still alive. There is a difference. If wrongs against the living can be made right they should be, but the MP has resisted this. What I find puzzling are the Orthodox who complain the most about the 1204 or the Unias act as if they have no responsibility for the Pseudo-synods of Lviv, Uzhorod, Presov, or Alba Iulia.

Fr. Deacon Lance