www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Benedict XVI gets the green light from MP

Dear Father Stephanos,

I humbly thank you for your kind words.

I am simply listening to my heart and soul...I know that many do not understand me, but I simply feel a love for Christ and His Church that has no boundaries of man made schisms and arguments.

When I contemplated the huge crucifix brought out from behind the altar yesterday, I thought about how Christ's arms on that cross are nailed to stretch out to the left and out to the right..just as if he was saying, "Have eyes to really look and you will see that my crucificion, my act of love and sacrifice is embracing all...those to the West and those to the East."

Kissing your right hand,
Alice, just an unworthy sinner

Sorry if my translation is faulty, I was just typing what I hear during the Divine Liturgy at my church (Sub Carpatho Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic). I was simplying trying to suggest the arguing cease in favor of union of us Christians in our hope for the union of the Holy Churches of God.

As for the pun, if I have to explain it, it ruins it - as well as possibly makes me look rather foolish if no one appreciates the pun.

Christos Voskres!

Thus posted Chotkimeister:
> Sorry if my translation is faulty, I was just
> typing what I hear during the Divine Liturgy at
> my church (Sub Carpatho Ruthenian Byzantine
> Catholic).

The translation is, in fact, faulty. I am happy to discus this with the translator; my guess is that it was translated from Slavonic, where by an accident of grammar (genitive plural adjectives having the same ending for all genders), it is ambiguous in that language, but it is clear in the Greek.

> I was simplying trying to suggest the arguing
> cease in favor of union of us Christians in our
> hope for the union of the Holy Churches of God.

But, that is not what that petition is about; in it we pray for:


1) Peace of all the world
2) Well being of the Holy Churches of God
3) Union of all people

Nonetheless, I disagree with you because I don't see the present augment as germane to "the union of the Holy Churches of God". Sorry, but I don't.

At any rate, I need to get ready for the Vespers Liturgy at noon (yes, too early, but still the latest Liturgy of the year; and, that way, I'll get to have some coffee by 4 or 4:30 this afternoon!)

> Christos Voskres!
A day early as a greeting, but true nonetheless!

S prazdnikom!
Photius, Reader

Photius,

from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese website the petition in Greek may be found here [goarch.org] :

The English translation is rendered as

which is not much different from what is used by the OCA:

or by the Metropolia of Pittsburgh:

I'm sure you would be able to reach the competent authorities of these respective jurisdictions and point out their error in transalation.

Dear Deacon John,

I tend to think Photius intended "parasynagogue" in the sense St. Basil the Great used it.

Tony

Alice,
lets not forget the North and South.
Stephanos I

Christ is Risen!
That is certainly what I meant, "parasynagogue" as used in the Canons and the Fathers in general, such as (most famously) by Saint Basil the Great oin his first canon. I was unaware that the word has any other meaning; what other senses can the word be used in?

Christ is Risen!
Photius, Reader

Father John, Christ is Risen!
Since receiving your post with three translations that read "for the union of all", I've scanned other English translations and found that even my own jurisdiction's current translation reads the same.

At the same time, I sought to ensure I was correct, so I asked a number of native speakers of Greek who are also educated in ecclesiastical Greek, including several priests and monks, and they all unanimously concurred that "all" does not refer to the "Churches of God" since the gender of "all" references something other than "Church" (and some noted the syntax in itself suggests "the union of all" is a separate petition not related to "for the well being of the Holy Churches of God"); please see the note appended to the end of this post.

So, the poster to whom I replied, who assumed that "all" refers to the "Churches" would seem to have been misled by the translation. On the other hand, since I generally do not like inserting extra words into a translation, and since the Slavonic suffers the same defect as the above English translations, it is hard to contend, as I did, that the translation is incorrect; but, it is misleading, and a case could be made for supplying another word to clear up the ambiguity.

Having translated some myself (mostly from Greek to Slavonic, where there is less contention because the forms and idioms are long in place; but my translations were of texts that had not been previously translated), I realize that there is often no perfect solution. And, some infamous mistranslations have stood the test of time, with commentaries having been written predicated on the error; in Slavonic, what comes to mind is "O joyful Light" being rendered as "Sv'et'e tikhij" when it should be, "Sv'et'e radnyj", an error which has been written about many times and which no one disputes, but has not been corrected over many re-translations.

Before contacting any other translator, I'll contact those responsible in my own jurisdiction (whom I know) after Bright Week and see what they have to say; they are generally happy to receive such feedback. Meanwhile, please do be aware that "all" does not reference "Churches".

Christ is Risen!
Photius, Reader

I just spoke to a friend in Boston, and it appears that I missed an important chapter in some of the recent events down there.

After Ted Kennedy finished praising president Yuschenko of Ukraine, he ended his speach by saying "the Kennedys are proud of both their Irish and Ukrainian heritage". The audience of course laughed but Ted Kennedy did not. He then asked that Caroline Kennedy better explain what he meant. Caroline Kennedy then returned to the microphone and explained to the audience that both sets or her husband's grandparents were very young Ukrainian immigrants when they came to America. She further stated that the Kennedys "would be travelling to Poltava (Eastern Ukraine) and Kiev (capital) this summer to trace / discover their half Ukrainian family heritage". The audience was to say the least 'stunned'.

The Kennedy family interest in "their Ukrainian heritage" has of course made JFK's historic role in releasing Patriarch Josyf (Slipyj) from Soviet captivity all the more interesting and personal. Thirtytwo years after JFK released the UGCC archbishop from a Soviet Gulag, the former president's only surviving grandchildren would be travelling to Ukraine to discover their half Ukrainian heritage. We hope to keep you posted on who and what they visit, particularly any and all Orthodox and Greek-Catholic churches.

I.F.

Not one to pass up a good argument between good people�

It has been my take on the matter� that�

What Moscow has not liked about John Paul II is that Rome (John Paul II and the Vatican) has consistently sided with the many ethic Catholic and Orthodox churches of Eastern Europe - which - after the fall of Communism - wanted their church property and identity returned to themselves.

It is no secret that during the spread of lergy and parishioners alike - died on the steps of their churches trying to protect their historic churches from this forced annexation. I can provide links to where some of these ethnic Catholic and Orthodox churches have made some of these martyrs into saints. Murdered by Communists and their churches confiscated to become Russian Orthodox.

Clergy and parishioners alike - died on the steps of their churches trying to protect thier historic churches from this forced annexation.
I can provide links to where some of these ethinc churches have made some of these marytars into saints...

Here in the US at that time, quick legal maneuvers prevented Russian Orthodox Church property from falling into Soviet ownership - by their then priests - turning over the deeds to that property to the parish people - in effect taking all that property out of the ownership of the Russian Orthodox Church and putting ownership into the hands of US citizens (Russian immigrants) called Parish Councils.

The Russian Orthodox Church split in - two - at this time. The Russian Orthodox Church located in Moscow (now under the ownership of the Soviet government) and the free Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia.

What is it called when a government takes over ownership from private owners? It is when the government legislates that private property is now owned by - the state. - anyway�

And (I must call a spade a spade) apparently the hierarchy of the ROC in Moscow - and Communism - had a time of an un-holy and reluctant alliance.

Certainty � Communism � with its original intent to wipe out all religion in Communist held countries � changed its mind and - used - the Russian Orthodox Church for several purposes. And the ROC went from being persecuted in Russia � to � a junior partnership with Communism� and a new growth outside Russia � at the point of Communist guns � which added substantially to ROC property.

Communist leaders gave ethnic churches of Eastern Europe a choice - die at gun point - or convert your church to Russian Orthodox. Some preferred to die - some converted. This was a necessary accommodation as it saved the Communists much trouble (it had not expected how hard erasing Christianity would be).

Communist authorities - did - ride hard over the Russian Orthodox Church. Heck - the Soviet givernment owned all churchs and all seminaries! Those hierarchy ROC clergy who agreed to function under that un-holy partnership advanced and those who did not went to die in gulag. Those clergy of Eastern European countries who opposed Communism and the ROC forced confiscation of their churches were also sent to Soviet gulags to die.

And the KGB - did - infiltrate ROC seminaries - to insure - the future cooperation of the ROC.

With the fall of Communism� and Eastern Europe countries formerly occupied by Soviet regimes now regaining their independence � there was (and still is) a great movement by the peoples of these countries - to take back ownership of these ethnic churches and property. Moscow - has violently resented this and has fought this repatriation on every legal front. Most of this is being played out in the World Court and certainly does not make mass media news.

This support of John Paul II - for the ethic churches (Orthodox or Catholic) to have their property and identity restored - is first and foremost what the ROC calls �proselytizing�. They consider it that these countries and peoples (in going to Word Court to have their churches and property returned) is stealing - Russian Orthodox property and congregations. Forced - conversion - of Russian Orthodox church and congregations.

Being passed at John Paul for giving his support to these ethic churches - the ROC sees ANY Catholic work inside Russia as - further proselytizing - and indeed tried to have the Russian Federation government build into the new constitution that the Russian Orthodox Church of Moscow is the only legal religion which may exist in Russia all others being illegal. This had to be watered down � because of what the government expected to be a world wide outcry.

- - - - -
On the charitable side� the Communists forced the ROC into cooperation. The Red dragon manipulated the ROC in order to get that cooperation� gulag and KBG.

We should not think the entire ROC corrupted. Much of what was done was done without her being able to do anything about it. And Moscow was targeted - so the ROC outside of Moscow (the country side and the ordinary priests) were not targeted except by way of who owned the seminaries (Moscow).

We must also remember that within the first few centuries of Christianity, the emperor of the Roman Empire also advanced the forced spread of Christianity by persecuting pagans to death. Orthodox, Byzantine, Latin - have at various times (like other religions) followed quickly behind military force.

Communist Moscow - found that it could not 'convert' the country side of Russia. And the same holds true today. If you ask the average Russian outside of Moscow - if anything has changed with the fall of Communism - he will tell you "Not much".. because the government of Russia mostly governs central cites - and the far ranging country side of Russia (taking care of itself) is glad that government stays in Moscow.

The Russian troops which defeated Hitler - did not fight 'for Communism' they fought for 'Russia' the motherland. Communism took over the government but did not take over the people of Russia. The ROC of Moscow has the same reality. It has control of the things of the Russian Orthodox Church - but it should not nessesarly be thought of as the heart and soul of the Russian Orthodox church.

In this sense - Moscow - has been the biggest stmbeling block to Catholic Orthodox relations. Not the Russian people of wide church. Just Moscow.

So when we speak of the Orthodox Church of Russia - we are really speaking about two things. It smaller central Moscow - and the much larger and wider Church as it has always existed in the Russian people as a whole.

Certaibnly the Roman Catholic membership is united to the Vatican of Rome - in a much diffrent way (great unity of mind) than the Russian Orthodox people of Russia are united to the Patriacrh of Moscow (a symbolic unity).

The average Russian Orthodox - loves his church (and rightly so). As a symbol of his church he also loves its symbolic head - Moscow.

-ray