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I deleted the post due to Memos' recent post regarding the Maronite Church which I found informative.

I must apologize to my Latin brother for acting too quickly. I really must resolve this split in myself, but it is hard with these mixed roots and feelings.

In Christ,
james

Thank you so much, Neil, for all that history.
That's the kind of thing I need to try to put things in perspective.

It makes me want to know more though...how did the liturgical life of the Maronite Church continue for all those hidden centuries...did it develop at all during that time? Did they retain a knowledge of the rest of the Christian world during that time?

Hi,

Why is expressing my readout of history considered a fault against courtesy?

No, but you seemed to be objecting Amado's expression of ours.

Point being...?

Of course my perspective is my perspective.

A = A is true, for any given "A".

My understanding is that you were talking about Florence. If I am mistaken, I apologize.

Ah, so there are those who did not / do not want it, anyway.

Well, the Catholic Encyclopaedia doesn't speak for me, or for the Roman Churh or for the Ukrainian Church.

I do remember, however, a rather sizeable congregation of Ukrainians celebrating with the Pope, giving thanks to God on the 400th anniversary of the event we are discussing.

That speaks with a louder voice than an unofficial book.

Ah, an historical agnostic. Well, we do not share positions here.

Historical facts are there. I am willing to concede the point that our ability to fully understand those facts objectively might not always be there, but the facts are there, I have no doubts about it.

Shalom,
Memo.

Hi,

Glad to be of service.

Well, if I am this Latin brother you mention, I need to say that no apology is needed.

First, and foremost, because we are Christians. As soon as you feel sorry for something you did that might have offended me, the circuit closes and reconciliation is effected.

Secondarily, in this particular case, because I did not have a chance to read your post, so I am blissfully ignorant about whatever the spice in my posts might have produced in your own.

But since I do know it produced something, I need to offer what is perhaps to be called a retroactive-preemptive non-specific broad-range apology.

Shalom,
Memo.

Shalom, Memo

Thank you for your informative post. I guess my interest in the Maronites has something to do with the fact that I know a few dear Lebanese Catholics who are very proud of their heritage. I usually see them at a RC Mass, but I believe that at least some of them actually belong to the local Maronite Church.

There is a lot of goodwill between the Maronite parish and the local RC parishes.

I enjoy noting the differences in our liturgies....Theirs seemed to have a more penitential tone than ours, and attending it was certainly a new experience, and one I would be glad to repeat.

I feel that understanding other rites would help give me a new perspective on truths that we (East/West) share, but express in different ways.

I am drawn to the spirituality of the eastern Churches as well....and would like to understand better how concepts such as purgatory, the dormition, etc. are explained by the various rites. I think our understandings East/West may be shared to good profit....

I am very content as a Roman Catholic...I don't want to change rites. I just want to grow in understanding the many beautiful ways of expressing and living the faith....

I am starting with the Maronites, but I want to know about all the rites.

I am "curious", but I am also eager to not just know, but truly understand and grow in the knowledge that leads to ever-deepening Unity In Christ

Sarah

to be called a "retroactive-preemptive non-specific broad-range" apology.

Now that is one heck of a catch all apology verse.

The deleted posting was stating my aversion to a perceived allusion to "Roman" superiority.

james

Dear Memo,

If everyone believed as you do about historical facts speaking for themselves, no one would ever apologise to anyone over anything.

I reject your "agnostic" label. Since you believe that "facts" speak for themselves, there is no room for more than one interpretation of them. We will agree to disagree.

The Pope certainly wouldn't be able to agree with you, for one thing, and he has done a few apologies in his time.

The Ukrainians did celebrate the Union - that doesn't mean we uncritically accept everything about it and its impact on our history as a Church.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia reflects current RC thinking in that area, something that is repeated by RC theologs and Cardinals, like your Cardinal Kasper.

Again, no one is saying you can't say what you want about Orthodox-Roman issues - but you can be diplomatic about it.

If you feel being diplomatic is compromising your one true faith, then perhaps you could connect with Rome and let Cardinal Kasper know?

He seems to want to defer to Moscow on so many matters pertaining to the UGCC.

That kind of "union" is definitely something Ukrainian Catholics DON'T want.

As for your diplomatic and Christian "Byzantine delusions" - well, if that is the RC position, then you can keep it.

It is offensive to all Byzantines.

And reflects the old RC delusions of Roman supremacy.

Alex

When I visited Our Lady Of Lebanon in Hillside a few years ago, the first thing that struck me was how un-Eastern the Maronite Church seemed. Still it was a treat to hear the Aramaic language (a woman reminded me in the parking lot that it was the language of Jesus)in a beautiful surrounding. Now if I went back I'd immediately be reminded of Mel Gibson's Passion Of The Christ

This is saddening , it really pains me to see discussions become divisive, it is not meant to be, we are equal & serve each other.

I guess we never learn anything from past events.

james

James - you are so correct

Let's put this one down to election fever.

Folk let's take a 'natural' break please

Anhelyna

Hi,

Please, don't get us wrong.

Alex is a dear brother, and I respect him deeply.

We do see RC-EC-EO relationships differently, but, at least as far as I am concerned, that doesn't stop me from expressing my agreements with him on other areas where we do stand together.

We just like to make the hairs on each other's back stand up from time to time.

Shalom,
Memo.

Hi,

I disagree. We do apologize for some things we did to the Orthodox in the past because we truly believe that the historical facts are that we have acted wrongly against them.

The time will come, and I hope soon, when we will do the same thing with Eastern Catholics from each and every tradition, because I do not think we are innocent towards our relationship with any.

But to go from there, to affirming that it was Rome the one who sepparated from the original Church, and not it is Rome the one coming back, is a HUGE stretch.

If you want to, we can. But before let me tell you that I dislike the label as well, and that I am very willing to live with different interpretations of facts, as long as they are mutually complementary and/or supplementary. But not when they are contradictory.

Oh, and fewer than I think there are due. We have acted wrong, no doubt. But that doesn't mean that the fullness of the Church of Christ does not reside in the Catholic Church, which is the Communion of Churches in Full Communion with the Apostolic See of Rome.

The Orthodox participate of this fullness in the degree they participate in the graces that this fullness implies, which might be 99.99999%, or more, but in order to be 100%, it has to include Communion with the Apostolic See of Rome.

That is the way the Lord instituted, and the Orthodox can argue all what they wish, they cannot argue away the Lord's command.

Now, being a visible member of this One Church is not all what it takes. We have a number of scumbags in our ranks, and in the past some of these have even occupied the Apostolic See, those are just some more of those historical facts.

But still, the Church is what the Lord made her to be, not what we make of her.

We still cannot change the Lord's commandment.

No, and I've never asked you to do. But if you did celebrate it, and if you do consider it valuable enough to renew it every deay, then it must follow that you still consider the bottom line of the union as positive.

There is no need to change the facts. The Ukrainian bishops wanted to resume communion with the Apostolic See of Rome, and we agreed.

That might be true, but it is not necessarily so. Precisely because the Encyclopedia is a reflection, not a source of Catholic teaching or policy.

In this regard, I disagree even with His Holiness. I think we have tolerated enough from Alexis, and I think we have sacrificed you guys enough for his sake.

Enough is enough, if the guy is not willing to correspond with our efforts of reconciliation, then fine, others will, eventually.

Neither do I, but besides prayer, there is little we can do.

And again, that doesn't alter what the Church IS.

Shalom,
Memo.

sigh...

Dear Brother Memo,

O.K., I can accept your argument!

Don't forget to vote today!

God bless!

Alex

Okay, now that the hatchets have been withdrawn temporarily and kept honed for use another day, let's keep Sarah's interest in the Eastern Catholic Churches whetted.

We have done a bit on the Maronites, our dear "latinized" brothers. (Based on Memo's accounts, it seems the Maronites are VERY happy for having been in "perpetual" communion with Rome? )

Neil, I believe your short descriptive list of the Eastern Catholic Churches, together with their respective current chief hierarch and seat/see will do the introductory honors.

Sarah has been a lady in (long) waiting!

Amado