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I am interested in understanding more about the Maronite Church.

I once or twice attended a bi-lingual Maronite liturgy a couple of years ago, and thought it was quite beautiful. It was celebrated in a Roman Catholic chapel, so I don't know how much more beautiful it might have been in its own setting.

Please fill me in on what makes Maronite history unique in the ranks of Eastern/Western Catholicism...

I asked questions a while back, and probably should remember the answers, but I am too lazy to go back and read old posts.... :rolleyes:

Dear Sarah:

Just 3 points why the Maronite Catholic Church is "unique" among the Eastern Catholic Churches:

(1) It's the ONLY Eastern Church that never separated from Rome (so the obvious "latinization");

(2) Along with the Italo-Albanian Catholic Church, the Maronite Catholic Church has no counterpart in Eastern or Oriental Orthodoxy; and

(3) Along with a very few others, the Maronite Catholic Church still celebrates her liturgy in Aramaic, the language of Jesus.

Yuhannon, a Maronite, posts here.

Amado

(Welcome back! Hope you are feeling well.)

Dear Amado,

From the Orthodox perspective, the Orthodox Eastern Churches did not separate from Rome - Rome separated from the Orthodox-Catholic Church of Christ through heresy and then later through schism of its own making.

Perhaps a better way of characterizing this is to say that the Maronite Church has constantly maintained communion with Rome - and thus the horrific Latinizations it has . . . (your words, not mine).

Interestingly enough, following the Union of Brest in 1596, many Latinizations were accepted (either by hoisting or voluntary) by the EC's in Eastern Europe.

With subsequent unions that brought other Ruthenian Orthodox into communion with Rome, the new RC's (Ruthenian Catholics) were shocked at how Latinized their brethren from an earlier union had become!

In Bl. Basil Velichkovsky's diaries, he states how he tried to tell his Orthodox converts to ECism not to "kneel on Sundays" etc.

"But did they listen to me? The new converts from Orthodoxy picked up on the Latinized practices we tried to uproot with a zeal that was overwhelming!"

Alex

Thanks for the welcome back, Amadeus. I'm doing ok, but not up to getting out to the All Saints liturgy today.

Thank you both for sharing your differing viewpoints :rolleyes: I didn't mean to start an argument or anything...

I thought the Maronite Liturgy I attended was beautiful. And your point Amadeus, that Aramaic is the language Our Lord spoke, makes it seem even more beautiful.

It is very interesting to think about the fact that the Maronites have no Orthodox counterpart.

As far as latinizations, I plead ignorance.... but, I would think it would be difficult for the Maronites to be certain what they borrowed from the latin rite, and what "latinizations" are actually part of their authentic tradition of remaining united to Rome.... (Once again, I plead ignorance , so don't fight too hard over this)

UIC -Sarah

Well, Alex, it only makes sense for Amado to say as much since he is a Catholic and would naturally express a Catholic view on the separation between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. So, yeah, from the Orthodox perspective blah blah blah, and from the Catholic perspective blah blah blah, but he's Catholic so his perspective is perfectly natural.

Logos Teen

Dear LT:

Thanks for enligthening Alex on this one!

Alex, now please be seated!

Amado

Amadeus, my brother,

No, no, no ... the Byzantine Italo-Greico-Albanians also never separated from Rome

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil:

Thanks for the correction (however slight )!

Don't you think Alex is pushing "his agenda" too hard?

Amado

Dear Teen Logo,

Well, I'm not proposing one perspective over another.

But I do think that when we converse on a forum like this where there are both Catholics and Orthodox (and both ) that we should stick to denominationally-neutral terminology as far as possible.

The reasons why Rome separated itself from the original Church did not go away when EC's came into communion with it at various periods of history.

It is just that we determined that they were not sufficient to justify the separation and were not, therefore, heretical.

At Florence and again at Brest, the Orthodox coming into communion with Rome were not asked to repent of their positions.

They just recognized that their positions and those of Rome could be viewed in a fresh light and, while different, did not justify separation.

We also know that many Orthodox in communion with Rome at the time of Brest felt that it was the POPE, not their Church, that had come to be reconciled to Orthodoxy.

As one wrote, "When one such individual was asked why his Orthodox Church now commemorated the Pope, he replied, "Perhaps it is because the Pope has come over to Orthodoxy finally!"

So blah-blah-blah, sensitivity is called for.

Alex

Dear Sarah:

Despite your forewarnings, don't be alarmed.

We are just exchanging pleasantries as we have done so charitably before.

I, for one, would not lock horns with Alex for he is right--most of the time!

Amado

Sarah,

As regards pleading ignorance, with all due respect to my Maronite brothers and sisters, they too would plead ignorance as to the latinizations that pervade their Church.

The latinizations among the Maronites can't really be credited to their continuing communion with Rome (the reality of which has actually been challenged by some) or to "borrowing", as much as it was "adoption" of them to assure Rome of its allegiance. The history of the Maronites begins with the formation of a monastic community around St. Maron, from whom they derived their name, in the 4th century; his followers were present at Chalcedon in the 5th century, although there isn't generally any assertion that they were so formally developed at the time as to yet represent an ecclesial ritual tradition.

At some subsequent point, they retreated into the mountains of the what is now Lebanon to avoid wars, persecution, etc. By about the 7th century, they were effectively isolated and not in contact with Rome, a situation that continued until the 12th century, when Crusaders came in contact with them. It was during those five intervening centuries that their ecclesial identity developed; although its nature will likely be never fully known, they had elected a patriarch and were probably using some form of Liturgy that was derived from the West Syrian Tradition of the Antiochian Rite. Whether their theological constructs were always in accord with that of Rome during the interregnum is a matter of dispute that arises and is re-debated every few decades, with no resolution ever finally achieved.

They formally declared communion with Rome to the French clergy who accompanied the Crusaders - that was in the late 12th century. - and their Patriarch attended the 4th Lateran Council in the early 13th century. The French continually exercised significant influence among them from that point onward and you could get a lot of argument about the extent to which they imposed the latinizations versus the extent to which they were eagerly adopted to assure Rome of the continued allegiance which they claimed to have held during centuries of separation. Regardless, much of their own historical tradition has been lost, so that it is a continuing source of concern what they need to restore and whether anyone knows to what it should be restored.

Many years,

Neil

Hi,

Why?

Why do I need to become less Catholic to talk with non-Catholics?

Why do I need to pretend I am something I am not to relate with those who are not what I am?

The Church of Rome is at least as much a part of that original Church as the Church of Antioch or Alexandria or Jerusalem.

I am at a loss in trying to make sense from your paragraph above.

Oh, how gracious of you.

Yeah, and they did not want it, remember?

I do not doubt it, but the historical facts seem to suggest that those opinions were/are incorrect.

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Memo,

Why is being courteous to Orthodox Christians something that makes you less of a Catholic?

Did anyone ask you to accept the Orthodox position?

And your perspective on the Unions is simply your particular perspective, not shared by many RC's today and certainly not by RC theologians in discussions with the Orthodox.

As for the Union of Brest - who did not want it? That union stuck.

There are many who say that union was an unfortunate part of RC/Orthodox ecumenical history.

The Roman Catholic Church, for one - have a look at the article on it in the New Catholic Encyclopaedia.

And, excuse me, again with the "historical facts."

There is no such thing really - only interpretations of historical events.

Alex

Glad to hear it....Sometimes, methinks I hear the sounds of approaching battle....

But this thread was about the Maronites, not about Byzantine delusions, so...


The Maronites came into being during a period of truble in the See of Antioch.

Chalcedonian Christians in present-day Syria and Lebanon were not only under the attack of non-Chalcedonian locals, but also being assaulted from Arab invaders from the South.

Some groups decided to isolate themselves and try to weather the storm with their own resources. One of such groups were the Maronites. But they they commited the most serious crime against Byzantine pride: They elected St. John Maron their Patriarch without the blessing of the Byzantine Emperor.

Of course, Rome never had anything against a Patriarch NOT appointed by the Emperor, but Rome was too far to be of much help.

During centuries of more-or-less isolation, the Maronites developed their own liturgical, spiritual and theological tradition, which, unfortunately, included some elements of the Monothelete heressy.

Later on, when regular communications could be resumed between the Maronites and the rest of the Church, the Maronites learned that Monotheletism was officially condemned, and of course, recanted from any erroneous matter and never went into formal heressy.

For Rome, that was enough and Full Communion was confirmed, and officially deemed never to have been lost.

For Constantinople, it was not. That terrible offense against the authority the Byzantine Emperor attributed to himself over the Church could not be forgiven, and as a side effect, the East-West schism did not affect the Maronites internally, the were Eastern, but remained in Communion with Rome.

Yes, since then Rome has abused the loyalty of the Maronites and we have unjustly latinized them, but the heart of the Maronites is larger than our imperialistic sins, and we are still brethren in Christ.

Perhaps it is too late for the Maronite Church to ever go back to a pure Western-Syriac tradition. But I think tradition is not only what happened 1500 years ago, but that, plus what happened 1000 years ago, and 500 years ago, and 100 years ago, and last year, and yesterday.

So, today, the Maronite Church, of Western-Syriac origin, is no longer only Western-Syiac, but also, in the mysterious way The Lord often acts, a true bridge between East and West.

Ukrainian, Ruthenian and Melkite Catholics might refuse to be the bridge between the East and the West they are called to be. But they are not our only hope, there is another.

I am myself a member of the Latin Church, but in His Mercy, God saw fit that I would belong to a Latin parish, which also serves as a Maronite parish, and is served by a Maronite pastor (Chorbishop William Lesser) and another Maronite priest (Father Pierre Albalaa).

Over the last 4 and half years, I have developed the deepest respect and love for Father Bill. Today in the Latin Church we celebrate the Solemnity of All Saints, and yes, I praise God for His Grace in Sts. Peter, Paul, Andrew, Francis, Mary, Theresa, Monica, etc. But with just the same intensity, I thank God for Fr. Bill, a true saint and a true model of Christian care for others. Many things I have that I do not deserve, among the first of these is the honor of calling myself the spiritual child of this holy man in Westlake Village, California.

I do not know if this answers your questions. I guess what I am trying to say is that interest for other Christian traditions in our Church almost always starts as curiosity about the various, different and beautiful liturgical and spiritual traditions.

But I think all of this should grow into a much deeper and stronger experience of Christian love as we relate to each other as Children of God.

In other words, Are you interested in the Maronite Church? Then go out and love your Maronite brethren, and make your participation in a Maronite liturgy just one more, in your numerous expressions of that love. That way, not only your curiosity will be fulfilled, but it will result in something positive and useful, not only for yourself, but indeed, for the edification of Body of Christ.

Shalom,
Memo.