www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Nestorian Churches and Monophysite Churches of the East

I recently read that the nestorian church does not use the same words of consecration as the catholic and orthodox churches do. If this is so are their sacraments considered valid by the catholic and orthodox churches? Are the sacraments of Monophysite churches valid.

The Catholic Church certainly regards the Sacraments of the Monophysite Churches as valid (these days, incidentally, it is "politically correct" to style the Monophysites "pre-Chaldedonians" or "non-Chalcedonians"). The matter of the [Nestorian] Assyrian Apostolic Catholic Church of the East was disputed until a year or so ago, when the Holy See issued a statement formally recognizing the Eucharist (and therefore the other Sacraments) offered in this Church, despite the peculiarity of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari.
Incognitus

Thanks for the validation! :rolleyes:

You are most welcome, although I had nothing to do with it (Rome certainly did not ask my opinion!)
Incognitus

"I recently read that the nestorian church does not use the same words of consecration as the catholic and orthodox churches do."

What words of consecration do we Orthodox use, please?

Stephen

Nor did we ask Rome's.

Our common declarations on Christology has paved the way to a measure of unity. Indeed, we each recognize the validity of each others' Sacraments.

Pope Shenouda III and Pope John Paul II have agreed that in cases of emergency, the faithful of either Church can receive the Sacraments of the other Church. I think Patriarch Karekin II, Katholikos of the Armenians, has the same understanding with the Pope of Rome - I am sure Brother Ghazar will correct me if I'm wrong.

Blessings,
Marduk

Dear Stephen,

Actually, the Assyrian Church of the East doesn't use ANY Words of Consecration in the Eucharistic Canon Rome referred to as noted above.

It simply goes to the Epiclesis - period.

This must have been a true religious "culture shock" for the Latin Church that underlines the Words of Consecration, often to the exclusion of any role of the Epiclesis.

Before Ray comes after me for misunderstanding or misrepresenting the Latin position ( ), I know that our UGCC priests of Roman training have always tended to see the Epiclesis as a "quaint rite" that effectively does nothing when it is recited during the Canon - what the Epiclesis does is already accomplished during the Words of Institution.

My wife's grandfather, Father Stephan Chabursky,(+Memory eternal!) wrote on this in his book, "The Epiclesis" that was published by Logos Press of the Redemptorists.

The Assyrians do take umbrage at being called "Nestorians" even though they do venerate "Mar Nestorius, Mar Theodoros and Mar Diodoros" as the "Greek Fathers."

But they say they do not affirm the "heresy of Nestorianism" and certainly they have reached a formal theological agreement with the Catholic Church on this.

Perhaps a future analysis of just what is meant by "Prosopon" in their tradition will yield a better perspective on that.

Alex

Dear Incognitus,

Well, if you really want to be so politically correct - the best term for the Oriental Churches is perhaps the one they themselves identify with - "Miaphysite."

To call them "Pre-Chalcedonian" or "Non-Chalcedonian" is to be somewhat paternalistic from our point of view.

It would be like the Roman Catholics calling Orthodox "the Eastern Churches that ONLY accept the first seven Ecumenical Councils" or the Orthodox referring to RC's as "Non-Photian Churches" .

Alex

My latin bones are still shaking...

Are there some online references for all of this? I mean the statement of recognition from Rome, as well as the details of the Assyrian, Nestorian, Pre-Chalcedonian, Miaphysite (take your pick as suits your needs) Liturgy.

Considering the latin tendency to think all you need is 4 words ("this is my body") to make a Mass, I think this is very fascinating indeed.

Your Latin, Roman, Western, Augustinian, post-Vatican II brother,

Dear Francis,

Here is a helpful website:

http//www.cired.org

God bless!

Alex

Francis,

Here are the two documents released by the Holy See recognizing the validity of the anaphora of the Assyrian liturgy:

GUIDELINES FOR ADMISSION TO THE EUCHARIST BETWEEN
THE CHALDEAN CHURCH AND THE ASSYRIAN CHURCH OF THE EAST:
Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity
www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUASCH.HTM [ewtn.com]

ADMISSION TO THE EUCHARIST IN SITUATIONS OF PASTORAL NECESSITY
www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/ADDAIMAR.HTM [ewtn.com]

Roma locuta est; causa finita est" (Rome has spoken, the case is closed)

Dear Griego,

"Nestorian" is definitely out - the Vatican doesn't use that term as it is offensive to the Assyrians.

Other terms that are a 'no-no' include: Uniate, Monophysite, Azymite etc.

Alex

Amen to that! Just yesterday I had a conversation with a friend of mine regarding this topic of the Assyrian anaphora and how the word "Nestorian" is no longer an appropriate term to be used.
Unfortunately, I still hear RC priests still using the word "uniate" when referring to the EC churches.

Dear Ghazar,
Well I didn't ask Rome either, so do not either praise or blame me. But someone must have asked Rome, since the Holy See does not make it a practice to offer gratuitous comments on the sacraments of other Churches. I would suspect that the request emanated from the Assyrian-Chaldean dialogue, which has been going on for a while now. But I don't know
Incognitus