www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Nestorian Churches and Monophysite Churches of the East

Just a last comment.

Recently in the USA and Canada the way sacraments are given in the Roman Church have departed from the RC traditional ways:

This includes Baptisms that are given "in mass" by changing the ways it is given ("massive-multple baptisms" a person pronouncing the words and another one pouring, allowing the parents to pour the water and not the priest) or under deficient forms (words added, or the names of the Trinity persons not mentioned as they must be); Chrismation administered with any kind of oil instead of special Chrism; "Invalid" Eucharists with abuses, etc.

This does cause doubt among the Orthodox and adds more problems to the already existing.

Dear Mexican,

Can you substantiate any of your above post? If this is truly the case then the Pittsburgh Roman diocese must be a church all its own.

That's EXACTLY the problem in most American
Roman Catholic dioceses today. The bishops
essentially "thumb their noses" at the rubrics
and the GIRM and administer the sacraments and
celebrate the liturgy any way they want. It's
really a form of "Catholic" congregationalism
since none of the Vatican directives are ever
enforced and the bishops know they can act with
impunity.

Again, let's see some substantiation for these bold claims. I have lived in three different dioceses in the past decade, and attended many parishes over that time, and I've never experienced these abuses that "most" dioceses supposedly encourage.

I'm not saying that there are not abuses, but I don't think it is anywhere near as bad as Mexican and antonius seem to indicate. In fact, I've never encountered or even heard of invalid baptisms as Mexican mentioned, even in the most "liberal" parishes.

The vast majority of priests I've known try very hard to say the Mass in a reverent, proper manner.

Dear Antonius,

And to all "Traditional" Latin Catholics out there. I give up, you win.

Please pray for me that I may come to see the light.

Bill

Hi all,

Coptic Orthodox, as some have correctly said, re-baptize only to complete what is deficient in the Catholic Baptism as to FORM. We believe the MATTER of the Sacrament (i.e., faith and baptism in the Triune God, necessity of water, baptism by an ordained minister) to be valid in the Catholic Church, if we can separate the two notions of form and matter. To be more concise, we DO believe that the Baptism of Catholics effects salvation, but to be a member of the Coptic Orthodox Church, you need triune immersion.

Further, the proselytism is not the issue regarding re-baptism, though if someone were coerced into baptism (it doesn't have to be physical, it may be mental or emotional) when that person had the use of reason, the question of validity will obviously arise.

Blessings,
Marduk

P.S. H.H. Pope Shenouda earnestly desires re-union with the Catholic Church. The Pope (I mean of Coptic Orthodoxy) has been at the forefront of ecumenical initiatives. Many describe him as the Pope that brought the Coptic Church into the 20th century.

Dear Marduk,

Yes, the point you raise is a very important one.

The Russian Orthodox Church not only rebaptized Catholics who wanted to become Orthodox, but also Ukrainian Orthodox who came to live in Russia.

And this was because the Ukrainian Orthodox under the Kyivan Baroque period adopted the Western practice of baptizing by pouring and not by triple immersion.

I believe the Greeks allow for "aerobaptism" or raising a child in danger of immediate death three times into the air.

Does anyone know more about this?

(a chastened) Alex

Mardukm
Then you would be happy to know that all baptisms at our parish are "Orthodox" that is by tripple immersion.
Stephanos I

Bless me Father, and thank you! That is a load off my mind.

And I should correct myself when I made the sweeping statement about correcting what is deficient in form in the Catholic Church's Baptism - because there ARE Catholics that baptize in an Orthodox manner.

Theotokos pray for our unity.

Marduk

Dear all,
The following are official declarations between individual Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church regarding Christology:

In May 1973 Coptic Pope Shenouda III and Pope Paul VI:
�We confess that our Lord and God and Saviour and King of us all, Jesus Christ, is perfect God with respect to His divinity, perfect man with respect to His humanity. In Him His divinity is united with His humanity in a real, perfect union without mingling, without commixtion, without confusion, without alteration, without division, without separation. His divinity did not separate from His humanity for an instant, not for the twinkling of an eye. He who is God eternal and invisible became visible in the flesh, and took upon Himself the form of a servant. In Him are preserved all the properties of the divinity and all the properties of the humanity, together in a real, perfect, indivisible and inseparable union.�
Catholic and Coptic representatives meeting at Amba Bishoy monastery in February 1988 reaffirmed the christological agreement found in the 1973 Common Declaration. They also adopted this more concise formulation which was intended to make the christological accord more accessible to the faithful:
�We believe that our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Incarnate-Logos, is perfect in His Divinity and perfect in His Humanity. He made His Humanity One with His Divinity without Mixture, nor Mingling, nor Confusion. His Divinity was not separated from His Humanity even for a moment or twinkling of an eye. At the same time, we Anathematize the Doctrines of both Nestorius and Eutyches.�

In December, 1996, Pope John Paul II and Armenian Catholicos Karekin I:
�[The Pope and Catholicos] particularly welcome the great advance that their Churches have registered in their common search for their unity in Christ, the word of God made flesh. Perfect God as to His divinity, perfect man as to His humanity, His divinity is united in Him to His humanity in the Person of the Only-begotten Son of God, in a union which is real, perfect, without confusion, without alteration, without division, without any form of separation.
The reality of this common faith in Jesus Christ and in the same succession of apostolic ministry has at times been obscured or ignored. Linguistic, cultural and political factors have immensely contributed towards the theological divergences that have found expression in their terminology of formulating their doctrines. His Holiness John Paul II and His Holiness Karekin I have expressed their determined conviction that because of the fundamental common faith in God and in Jesus Christ, the controversies and unhappy divisions which sometimes have followed upon the divergent ways in expressing it, as a result of the present declaration, should not continue to influence the life and witness of the Church today.�

June 1984, Syrian Orthodox Patriarch Ignatius Zakka II and Pope John Paul II maintained in their Common Declaration that past schisms �in no way affect or touch the substance of their faith,� since the divisions arose from terminological misunderstandings. They then made the following joint confession of faith:
�In our turn we confess that He became incarnate for us, taking to himself a real body with a rational soul. He shared our humanity in all things but sin. We confess that our Lord and our God, our Saviour and the King of all, Jesus Christ, is perfect God as to His divinity and perfect man as to His humanity. This Union is real, perfect, without blending or mingling, without confusion, without alteration, without division, without the least separation. He who is God eternal and invisible, became visible in the flesh and took the form of servant. In Him are united, in a real, perfect indivisible and inseparable way, divinity and humanity, and in Him all their properties are present and active.�

In October, 1989, representatives of the Catholic Church and the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church of India met. In June, 1990, their text (which follows) was OFFICIALLY approved:
�Our Lord Jesus Christ is one, perfect in his humanity and perfect in his divinity, at once consubstantial with the Father in his divinity, and consubstantial with us in his humanity. His humanity is one with his divinity � without change, without commingling, without division and without separation. In the Person of the Eternal Logos Incarnate are united and active in a real and perfect way the divine and human natures, with all their properties, faculties and operations.�

I am almost certain that the Catholic Church and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church also have a common Christological statement, but I could not find the text on-line.

Theotokos, Pray for our unity
Marduk

I've read that the Jacobite and Monophysite are degoratory terms for Syrian Orthodox. We shouldn't use that.