www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Death/Immaculate Conception

Lance,

Thank you so much for the clarification. Perhaps my theory has some life in it after all! Now, I�m just waiting for validation (or not) that my equation of death with corruption is an unacceptable �addition� to Eastern theology, given the Pauline source of my assumption.

In Christ always

P.S. Are subdeacons addressed with a title? I am always careful to address my spiritual superiors with due respect.

This thread is very interesting.

I cannot post as much as I used to, because I am up to my eyeballs in work.

Anyway, I think that Francisg is owed an apology. He is a thinker, and his musings have been unjustly castigated. Accusations of bad will only create bad will. Francisg has also dealt with the accusations in a remarkably restrained fashion.

Note also that on the Luther thread, he came down against Paxtecvm's flinging around of the word "heresy," offering a creative solution to the impasse. If he has spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong. It does not suffice, simply to say "you are a guest so shut up".

Just my Canadian nickel.


LatinTrad

I disagree with you brother Latin Trad,

Unlike you, it seems to me that francisg has come on to this forum as many Latins do, to debate and challenge Eastern Christian belief and to attempt to persuade us that his/Latin arguments are more correct/compelling and reasonable.

I used to do the same thing. But one day I finally realized if I want to learn about the East, the best way is to shut my mouth and open my ears. What they believe makes a lot of sense and is very reasonable, if we drop our defenses and really try to listen and understand (something the Pope of Rome, himself, says he does, i.e. listen to the East). Coming to this forum with a confrontational approach will get Latins no where. The sooner they realize this and change thier tone the sooner we can get down to business and actually accomplish something.

I think I could make a pretty good run at answering some of francisg's questions but because of his tone, I have no real desire to even bother. I'm on this forum more to explore and understand better my Oriental Christian faith, not to debate with Latins (although this is very tempting some times).

Anyways, this is how I see the subject.

Ghazar

Maybe I just mis-read Francisg's posts--but it looked to me like he was just trying to be creative and reconcile the Eastern view with the Western. Maybe my mis-reading is due to the fact that I am not as sensitive to the bits of Eastern theology that are being lost in his explanation. Perhaps.

LatinTrad

Interesting point. But this is an Eastern Christian Forum. Should not the Latin Catholic participants seek to reconcile Western theology with Eastern theology?

Is Western theology the measuring stick by which our theology is to be judged?

If reconciliation is required, would it not be better to reconcile the various theologies with one another than reform the East to be acceptable to the West?

Dear Ghazar,

I noticed I raised your ire at the beginning of this thread when I told Alex, �I only wanted a yes or no.� You probably did not know that I have an established joking relationship with Alex, so my humor was probably lost on you, and you immediately saw it as insulting (despite my �wink�). But first impressions are the best (or worst) so I am forever unforgivably branded an insensitive Latinizer.

BTW, I am glad that you are not willing to listen to me so that I might be able to change your views. My original intention is being realized � that is, I was not intending to change anyone�s personal views, only personal misconceptions. If you had no misconceptions about the Latin understanding, more power to you.

In Christ always

Dear Latin Trad,

I don't think its a matter of sensitivity, per se, but of approach and attitude. If you don't see his confrontational approach, then what can I say? But to me commanding others to "prove it" is confrontational. He has proposed this so-called "theory" which prompted an immediate reply (which he apparently totally blew off). After this, others have responded somewhat coldly to this "theory" to which responses he has reponded with a bunch of "prove its". This whole thread is ridiculous. The problem of the Immaculate Conception doctrine is not going to be solved by one western (arm-chair) theologian unilaterally proposing his westernized solution. What it will take rather, is allowing the authentic Eastern and Western Traditions to meet on equal ground and see what these two respective traditions have in common and what they can say together as a result of that commonality. The very suggestion that this Latin Church member has the audacity to solve Eastern theology's problem with the Immaculate Conception FOR THEM is in itself rather insulting and symptomatic of Latin Church traditional arrogance (which today is Not manifested by His Holiness JPII).

Again, I think I could speak to francisg's questions. In fact, many of them I already have (see: http://www.geocities.com/wmwolfe_48044/apologetics.html ). I even have written on the precise argument he is presenting about if Christ died and death is the result of the primordial sin, then did Christ bear the results of this primordial sin. Yet, he has by-passed this question already and has already written it off as an obvious Eastern theological mistake which needs his ellucidation and correction. Spare me. If you don't see the offense in this, then how can I help you see it? No one here is too concerned with this attitude becuase people like Alex (Orthodox Catholic) have already dealt with it a thousand times. People like this either back off and listen or find another forum for their ramblings and tyraids. I hope he chooses the former.

Trusting in Christ's Light,
Wm. DerGhazarian
Looys Kreesdosee
www.geocities.com/derghazar [geocities.com]

Dear LatinTrad,

Thank you so much for coming to my defense. However, I respectfully ask that you do not do it again. I am sure you have a valuable place here in this forum, and if my lot is to eventually be removed from this forum, I do not to take you down with me. If I am going to be misunderstood and castigated for it, at least I will have more to offer up to Christ.

The way I see it, which many here probably will never understand, I have tried to do three things here. 1) When I see a Western view being misunderstood, wherein the misunderstanding leads to disunity, I try to correct that view in hopes of promoting unity. 2) When I see a source of disunity between Eastern theology and Western theology, I try to propose a view that might be amenable to both so unity may be more easily realized. 3) In all times, I try to promote biblical truth. In all instances, many people have viewed my efforts MERELY as an attempt to convert people, though I have explicitly presented my views otherwise. I genuinely want to learn, especially about the differences between East and West, and in gaining knowledge of these differences, hope to find some sort of reconciliation. But I see I will be prevented from understanding these differences because many here, especially administrators who have the power to remove me from this forum, see my desire to understand merely as a thoughtless challenge for them to unnecessarily defend Eastern theology.

It is the inevitable sinful human condition to simply judge without trying to understand. I�m sure there are those who would say the same about me, but all my efforts to understand by asking, �explain yourself please,� have only been met �I don�t have to explain myself to you.� Quite ironic, huh?

Oh well, more penance leads to the greater glorification of souls, so who am I to even begin to understand why I am so misunderstood here.

In Christ always, and always fishing for information.

Is it not your responsibility to present your ideas in a manner which is not offensive, one in which you express yourself clearly?

Dear Ghazar,

I could only smile at your obvious intentions to insult me. Though, seriously I do not know where you are coming from. I will only give one example, which speaks volumes:

I said at the end of the paragraph in question:

I don�t know, but I thought I was asking for more input, and that I hadn�t �written it off.�

Once again, I ask for understanding, and there is simply the response, �we don�t need to prove anything.�

Also, I think you are sensationalizing my request to �prove it.� I kept asking it for only one thing and one thing alone, but I was not getting any answer, just the continuous typical response, repeated here by you, �we don�t need to prove anything.�

Finally, I didn�t know I was trying to solve the entire problems of the East or West, by trying to address one issue. Oh well.

God bless you, and my the peace of Christ be upon you.
In Christ always

If I wanted to read "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" again, I would not have come to the Byzantine Forum to do it
:rolleyes:

Dear Admin:

You asked whether it should not be my obligation to present my questions in a less insulting manner.

I asked:

Can you please explain how my position is an addition to Eastern theology in light of the Pauline statement.

You responded:

We don�t have to explain anything to you.

Now, Admin, please help in dispelling my ignorance. What about my request was insulting to you?

SURELY, we are getting off the topic. I�m beginning to get the impression that my question will NEVER be answered! :p

By the way, only because it seems to have been misunderstood or overlooked before, the laughing and wink icons are meant to indicate that a person is joking around.

In Christ always

Brian,

Anytime now, I�m expecting to be beheaded or burned at the stake. On second thought, I guess that won�t happen nowadays, but I will CERTAINLY be anathemized if one of our blessed administrators manages to get a bishop to view my heretical Latinizing tendencies which go against the very exhortations of our Pope! :p

In Christ always

francisg,

Yes, I agree that is possible that your question will never be answered. Your style of posting is offensive and I have no desire to hold a conversation with you. But I understand that it is entirely my fault for not understanding you. At least you can offer up your sufferings at my hands for Christ.

Admin

:Sigh: