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Christ is Baptised!

I was under the impression, however, that a formal change of Rite only really applies if one intends to Marry or be Ordained in a ritual Church which one was not Baptized in. Or, if one is seeking to raise children outside of the parents birth Church. Otherwise, would there really be any other real reason to do it formally other than Spritual designs?

Dmitri

Well, but it also applies if you want to receive sacraments like chrismation or marriage there, cause even if you go to your byzantine parish for years, but you have not done the paper work, if you wanna get maried there you'll be sent to "your" western parish which corresponds to you, and to attend "talks" there and maybe marry in that church.

It is also important to be careful with what you write in the letter to the latin bishop about your reasons for changing rites. Remember that many western Bishops will probably think that there's nothing better than the modern Latin Rite and that the other Churches of the East are just dispensations for foreign people.

I know some people who were attending a melkite parish for some time and the paperwork to change rites was incredible (I know it's not the same in USA) and in this case the Latin priest who received the letter (not the Bishop, although he spoke in his name) wrote him that there was no reason to change to a foreign rite and that it was an "un-patriotic" action to do so, and that he suspected that "this is the case of a person who disagrees with progressive lines of the Catholic Church and who is ankled to the medioeval ages" and other things (I cant believe a priest could write that!!).

This story had a happy ending, these persons were soon received in the Orthodox parish and are very happy now, with a community which respects them and priests with a great pastoral sense.

Other than the odd and unfortunate case you mentioned, I haven't ever heard of someone being denied translation. What a shame that the priest was allowed to act in place of the bishop in the first place.

ChristTeen287

Memo:

At the time I asked for such a change--more than 25 years ago--I was told that the bishop of the place where I lived (not the same as where I am now) would not stand for such a thing, especially for people who didn't like the changes in the Mass just beginning at that time. I was told I'd have to petition the Apostolic Delegate.

BOB

Christeen and Bob:

Yeah that was an odd case, but the priest who answered that letter was a priest who had a charge in the Diocese. The message was quite breve, he didn't refuse the change of rite in a total way, but quoted that "he recommended to talk with his latin-parish priest and to participate more in his western parish" and that if their famillies were not foreign, "he didn't see any reason to change to a foreign rite." As I told you, in the mind of most Roman priests, at least here, there's very few knowledge about the Eastern Church.

Bob's comments are very good to illustrate what happens in some cases, but not in all of them. I know a maronite priest from Mexico who was ordained in the Latin Church, and four years ago he became maronite without troubles (actually he was the nephew of a former maronite Patriarchh, but his Mexican familly was all Latin). The maronites have received other converts without difficulties.

It is probable that Roman Bishops and priest would be willing to accept the switch of rite without hesitation, as long as their present liturgical establishment is not jeopardized. I understood this in a conversation with the maronite bishop of Mexico (now deceased ) They will watch people could be targeted as "conflictive" (or that they dislike changes in the Roman mass).

I think this way of thinking is erroneous, after all if you analyse the case I decribed before, these good christians were lost by the Catholic Church, and if experiences like this are known, more people will end up in the Orthodox parish (And the switching-rite paperwork doesn't help either. In both cases these persons were received by the Orthodox Church by simple profession of Faith)

Remie:

It seems to me that if we are in communion, it should be a simple matter of registering in a parish where one wishes to become part of the community, whether Armenian, Byzantine, Coptic, Latin, Maronite, etc.

I don't advocate jumping every few years from place to place just for novelty. I have learned that one's spiritual progress comes with a deepening and growth where one has become part of the community. I have been part of other parishes than Latin parishes and have immersed myself in the spirituality of the place I have found myself. Maybe that's why I am now Latin but have used Byzantine prayer books almost exclusively for my own spiritual journey. I find that these prayers speak to me deep inside this clay vessel where I live. I particularly like to read translations that show me how the Holy Spirit has moved my brothers and sisters in other times and places.

One favorite collection is Ancient Devotions for Holy Communion, compiled and first published in 1929, to give all Catholics the chance to use some of the most ancient prayers from all the earliest Christian communities. It's available from Roman Catholic Books, Fort Collins, CO, in a new edition. It is the best single source I've found that shows the parallel growth all the earliest communities had and gives an appreciation of the way each of us has responded to the Holy Spirit.

BOB

Greetings again from the guy who originally posed the questions

I appreciate very much the replies, although in some cases I may have inadvertently ruffled a few feathers. Please know that was not my intent to offend or "bait" anyone. Let me also make it clear that I was not looking for an affirmation that the Byzantine Catholic Church is without sin and scandals. I never thought that for a second. My remark regarding homosexuality (admittedly I was not clear) concern the deliberate recruitment of militant homosexuals with heterodox views in Roman Catholic Seminaries. Anyone familiar with the term "Lavender Mafia" knows what I am talking about. I have no desire to condemn homosexually oriented persons and my prayers are with those who strive to live a chaste life.

Please also know that I am by know means signing my life away to the Byzantine Catholic Church; it would be premature to change rites at this stage having been to only one Divine Liturgy. The only thing I know is that I want to go back to that church. With this in mind, I don't think my questions were premature; I was only seeking to find out what Byzantine Catholics are like.

As for the assertion that I may be "running from something" rather than being attracted to the Byzantine Church, I would like to say that "running from something" may not necessarily be a bad thing. While I do not expect priests to be without sin, I do expect them to at the very least to profess the teachings of the Catholic Church. If the Roman Catholic priests in my area persist in their heterodoxy and liturigical abuses, then I will look elsewhere as long as it is within the See of Peter.

What attracts me to the Byzantine Catholic Church? First and foremost, it is the beauty and transcendence of your liturgy, as opposed to the all-too-often sentimental Roman Liturgy. The Eastern Churches I have seen, dare I say, look like God's house. Second, I like the idea of a Liturgy being almost entirely sung for both religious and practical reasons. On the practical side, having an antsy infant with us is less noticeable when everyone is singing Third, the Byzatine emphasis on spiritual warfare is very appealing to me.

As for the gentleman who advised me of the fact that there are now more than three Byzantine Catholic Churches in Texas, I am very pleased. I would like to visit more than one Byzantine Catholic parish will probably check out St. Sophia's sometime...which brings me to another point:

The Archeparchy of Pittsburg seriously needs its own Web site. Any word on when that would happen?

Thank you all again for your replies.

In Christ,
Marc

Marc:

Welcome to the Byzantine Church ! I can understand having the desire to ask questions - I know I was (and still am ) full of questions . This board helps a lot, as well as other good websites and various readings. As for your reasons for looking into the Eastern Catholic Church - they are for the most part my reasons also. I recently became my church's oldest altar boy and when I first served one of our deacon candidates told me that during the Divine Liturgy we just served at I was closer to God than the angels - I know this in my heart to be true and I am very happy for you and your family's discovery of the East. I pray you continue to attend the Divine Liturgy and follow wherever our glorious God leads you.

Christ is Baptised! In the River Jordan!

Glenn

Marc

I have said very little but think now is possibly the right time.

I have come to love the East since I came to this board. Physical contact though is very limited - where I live the East is noted really, by the difficulty in finding it - information is really by word of mouth - It took me the best part of a year to find my nearest Eastern Catholic community

However I can and do mange to worship in the East a few times a year when I am in France and it has to be admitted the language is a problem - French I could cope with - but Ukrainian ?? And despite the comments that you will hear I have found that tiny community most welcoming [ like this cyber Parish here ]

The Divine Liturgy has, to me, that timeless element, a very deep spiritual content, and it satisfies something in me. I only wish I could be there more often.

However here I have my contact - I have made wonderful friends and I thank God for it [ oh and of course the Admin here without whom none of this would have happened - and he doesn't pay me for comments like this either ]

Stick around and remember that we can all ruffle a few feathers - we wouldn't be a Community if we didn't.

Angela

Hello:

I think you were told wrong. Other than your Local Ordinary, only the Pope has canonical authority over you.

And then, if your Bishop opposed such transfer, I think you'd have a rather difficult time convincing the Pope that you're right and your Bishop is wrong about such an issue. I wouldn't even bother to try.

When it is God's will that you transfer from one Church to another, He will show you the right way.

Obedience is a virtue.

Shalom,
Memo.

It's a lil bit like the case I described before. Even when liberal Bishops act wrong and against the will of the Pope in some things, you can't expect the Vatican to act against the decisions they took. There have been cases of course (like that one when Cardinal Ratzinger suspended the unjust excommunications against some people who were attending a SSPX Chapel in Hawaii, and other minor cases). But as Cardinal Ratzinger himself said "dialogue is the only obbedience we can expect from them."

These people who tried to change rites and were refused, had the option of writing the Pope but that was even more burocratic, and helped them to prove that what they were doing had no sense.
And they were received in the Antiochian Orthodox Church with a proffession of faith, without talks and paperworks and permissions and now they're happy there.

I guess this helps you to understand why so many people end up Orthodox

>>> The Eastern Churches I have seen, dare I say, look like God's house.<<<

That is because when you enter into the Church we believe you are in heaven on earth.

>>>The Divine Liturgy has, to me, that timeless element, a very deep spiritual content, and it satisfies something in me.<<<

Also, when we enter the church we are no longer on earths time, but God's time alone.

Just leave the old pocket watch at home and enjoy being in His Holy presence! He is an elegant decorator.