www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Is it ok to join the Orthodox Church if no BCs are in the area?

I hope this is not off topic.

I was raised Lutheran but have been attending a pan-Orthodox mission church for over a year. everytime I attend the divine Liturgy, I gain new theological understanding. My journey to Orthdoxy has been a long one. From arguing with the Lutheram catchism teacher, to reading about Zen buddhism and other pagan reigions, to studying the Mormon religion to attending a Friends Meeting to attending mass at an Episcapol Church.

However, it never all fit together. There ere pieces of the puzzle but there was always some of the pieces were missing. Then I attended a divine Liturgy. It was like time ceased to exist. The sepperation between heaven and earth gets a tit blurry as 'we represent the Cherubim'. Reading more aout Orthodox, I learned about theosis. I had been troubled for years about passages in the bible refering to people and angelic being as 'gods'. Learning the differences between God's essense and his divine energies put the confusing bible verses into propper perspecive. Also I leaed that the Light of Christ that the Quakers had taught me about, is actially Uncreated Divine Energy.

Many doctrines: the Trinity, the Communion of Saints, Christ's decent into hades, Partaing in the Divine Nature etc etc did nt make sence until studying Othdoxy. Plus there is a heavy focus on the resurection which I(as a confirmed Lutheran) can appreciate.

The only Catholic Churches in my area are Latin Rite. Strange things happen in some of these churches. One time I attended mass and they showed some slickly produced video to try to get people to donate to the catholic schools (I don't know if mas had ended or if this was the half-time report)! Is this a propper use of the sanctuary? In any case, it might have been a a mortal sin but I left church as the presentation still going on. The is onlyt so much a person can take. Another time the Right to Life people were handing out pamphlets inside the church building endorsing Republican poltical canidates.

I wish there were Eastern Catholic parishes in my area but there are not. One can learn much about Orthodox/Eastern theology simply from the divinee Liturgy itself: both in the prayers and the music. I really feel myself being drawn closer to God.

I do not disagree with te assumption of Mary, the Imaculate Conception, papal infalibility etc. My question is: would it be wrong for me to join the Orthoox church. Or being a 'true church' with Apostolic concession would I be joing the One Catholic and Apostolic Church (even though the Orthodox Church isn't yet in perfect communion?

Dear Friend,

"My question is: would it be wrong for me to join the Orthoox church. Or being a 'true church' with Apostolic concession would I be joing the One Catholic and Apostolic Church (even though the Orthodox Church isn't yet in perfect communion?"

I would join without hesitation.

Dan Lauffer

Dear friend,
I undertand and sympathize with your plight. However, I cannot echo brother Dan's advice.
Please meditate on these words:

"Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.

"We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23-24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.' "

They come from Boniface VIII's "Unam Sanctam" (available in its entirety at http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html )

Pray to Our Lord for guidance.

Latin

I would say that, if you understand the reasons why the Catholic Church claims to be the one true Church, and you agree with them, then you have an obligation to join it, even if it is difficult for you to attend Mass in your area. (That is something that a lot of us here understand, by the way!)

If you do not understand or agree with these reasons, then you are not obligated to join (although we would still like to have you! ). The main thing is to make the effort to find out, and don't give up just because the externals are a pain in the butt. Seek the TRUTH - just remember, if you want to find the truth, you have to find Christ, and that means going where He is -- not necessarily where you might wish He was!

The "Church of Christ is the Church of Christ is present and operative" n the Orthodox Church.

"Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church."

DOMINUS IESUS IV. UNICITY AND UNITY OF THE CHURCH paragraph 14

So, "the Church of Christ is present and operative" in the Orthodox Church although it is "not existing in perfect communion"

"The Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.' "

This is from a solemn definition, and is not directly contradicted by the "Church of Christ" being "present and operative" within Orthodoxy.

There are "ecclesial elements" in Orthodoxy. But there is still only one sheepfold and one shepherd (Christ); Christ comitted His sheep to Peter.

I don't mean to come down on you with this--I can understand the agony you are in--but keep in mind the words of Our Lord--"on this Rock I will build My Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it" (Mt. 16). That guarantee was not given to any other ecclesial community or "particular church."

Peace, brother in the Lord.

LatinTrad

"Confirm, O God, the Holy Orthodox Faith and Orthodox Christians, unto Ages of Ages, Amen!!!!!!!"

So only Roman Catholics are part of the Catholic Church? That is what your post implies. No possible existance of particular churches.

The Apostles went to the four corners of the earth as Apostles, not as Roman Catholics. Your statement is also in apparent contradiction to the teaching of various papal documents such as Lumen Gentium, Orientalium Ecclesiarum, etc. as well as current Roman and Eastern canon law which provide for particular churches sui iuris.

Also your implicit acceptance of

is in opposition to the papal bull of Boniface the VIII. Is it present and operative within Orthodoxy or not? If it is, well, then there are some inconsistencies here.

Dear LT-2:


Keep on plodding and plugging!

AmdG

Brian, my thoughts exactly. I also second Dan's statements which are to the point.

Herman, you have the latest teaching of the church in front of you on this issue with Dominus Iesus.

That is the position of the Catholic Church as promulgated by her current Pontiff. This is what I hear the bishops and Pope quoting today, not Boniface VIII.

It is truly a difficult path of discernment. May the Holy Spirit guide and dwell within you on this pilgrimage.

Diak,

I do not imply that only Latin Catholics are in the Church. The whole point of your forefathers' lives, and of St. Andrew Sheptytsky's life, was that 1)communion with Rome was necessary and 2)it did not require them to abandon their Eastern identity or their Orthodox approach to the Faith.

The "Church of Christ is present and operative" somewhere does not mean that that place is the Church of Christ. Obviously, since the Orthodox have valid sacraments, the Church of Christ is present and operative there--valid sacraments are an ecclesial element. Nevertheless, the one sheepfold, the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of all, subsists in the Catholic Church, which CONTAINS--not excludes--the "sui juris" churches in communion with Rome.

LatinTrad

There is only one Catholic Church - Roman or Byzantine, East or West, North or South, there is only one Catholic Church. It is the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church which has existed since Christ founded it.

And the head of this church is the Bishop of Rome. That's how we know for sure that we're in the right one.

I'm sure someone will disagree. C'est la vie.

Et tu, Theist Doll?!

AmdG

What can I say, sweetie?

I love my Church, both East and West,
And it's our Pope that makes it best!