www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Is it ok to join the Orthodox Church if no BCs are in the area?

Some of the differences in perspectives arising out of the original poster's question may be attributed to the differences in canon law for the Latin Church and the Eastern Churches.

The obligation for Latin Catholics to attend Mass is found in c. 1248:

"Can. 1248 �1 The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on a holyday itself or on the evening of the preceding day.

�2 If it is impossible to assist at a eucharistic celebration, either because no sacred minister is available or for some other grave reason, the faithful are strongly recommended to take part in a liturgy of the Word, if there be such in the parish church or some other sacred place, which is celebrated in accordance with the provisions laid down by the diocesan Bishop; or to spend an appropriate time in prayer, whether personally or as a family or, as occasion presents, in a group of families."

The corresponding canon in the CCEO , according to the index, is canon 881:

"Can. 881 �1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris , in the celebration of the divine praises.

�2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day..."

Interestingly, there is also this canon, 670, relative to the original post:

"Can. 670 �1. For a just cause Catholics can attend the liturgical worship of other Christians and take part in the same, observing those things which, by reason of degree of communion with the Catholic Church, are established by the eparchial bishop or by a superior authority.

�2. If non-Catholic Christians lack a place in which divine worship can be celebrated with dignity, the eparchial bishop can grant use of a Catholic building or cemetery or church according to the norm of particular law of his own Church sui iuris."

There is no corresponding canon in the Latin code to can. 670.

It appears, that while a Latin Catholic may fulfill his/her obligation "anywhere in a Catholic rite" (I assume this includes Eastern Catholic liturgies), there is no reciprocal directive upon Eastern Catholics to participate in a RC Mass to "fulfill" the Sunday or feast day "obligation", but Eastern Catholics may participate in Orthodox liturgies in accordance witj norms established by the bishop, metropolitan, or patriarch. As is noted in the Eastern code, the "obligation" is "fulfilled" by participating in the divine praises (aka, liturgy of the hours).

JM

Dear Andrew Seraphim,

There is really NO difference in the Liturgies (at least ideally) except that the Pope of Rome is commemorated by the Eastern Catholics.

I say "ideally" because of the ongoing issue of Latinization of the liturgy.

The 33 Articles of the Union of Brest-Litovsk affirm emphatically that the Divine Liturgy is to remain the same as it always was in Orthodoxy and, words to the effect that, we and our Orthodox brothers and sisters will always form one, single liturgical family.

Alex

I am amazed that this thread has gone on for as long as it has.

The Holy Father and the Roman Catholic Church have affirmed that the Orthodox Churches retain all the graces of the Church founded by Christ. There are administrative issues that do not affect the spiritual reality of either Church.

So, if a Catholic of the Eastern persuasion finds him/her-self in an area where there is no Eastern Catholic community, and participation in the Roman Church is spiritually counter-productive, then why is there any question or discussion? Just GO!. If one is a ROMAN, dyed in the wool, then this option is not open; stay where you are. But if one is of the Eastern/Byzantine ethos, then one goes to the home of one's relatives, and seeks shelter there.

(To be honest, this jurisdictional back-and-forth gives me hives.)

Blessings!

I didn't think the original poster's question had to do with just attending Orthodox churches - I think that since he wasn't yet converted to either one, he was wondering what to do ... in terms of conversion. Anyway, I hope that he has augmented any internet searching with personal consultations with clergy in his area ...
Best wishes to St. Herman.
CS

I attend an Orthodox Mission Church. They don't have a parish priest yet. So they must bring a priest in from down state. This means that there is a different priest each time. So on Lord's Day, if there is no Divine Liturgy, I try to spend some time listening to Greek Orthodox, Melkite, Coptic or Syriac Orthodox hyms online. I also watch online liturgies if possable and watching EWTN. Or I read an Orthodox book.

When there *is* a Divine Liturgy. I try to talk to the visiting priests. But its kinda diificult to discuss theology during the meal after the liturgy. Especially sinse everybody wants to talk to the priest (since there is a different priest each time). The are no eastern Orthodox proests up hear for me to talk to. I know there is a melkite parish in in the Lansing area (where a friend attends Michigan State University). Does anyone know if there are any Eastern catholic churches in Ann Arbor? My brother may move down there and I might eventually move down there.

Glory to Jesus Christ

Once again, my poor typing skills are showing.


"The are no eastern Orthodox proests up hear for me to talk to."

I meant to write 'there are no Byzantine Catholic priests up hear for me to talk to.'

Well I'm off to message a couple of people and then drink some coffee.

I can see the point of going to an Orthodox church if going to a Roman Catholic church is, as Dr. John says, "spiritually counter-productive." Then again, I'd advise this person to get over whatever problems he has with the RC church/Church/Mass, and to recognize with whom he is in full communion and with whom he is not.

Logos Teen

One may say that they like the Eastern liturgy more than the West, and that it's not just a matter of "getting over" any problems with the RC church/Church/Mass. But to this I say: the Lord is just as faithfully worshipped in an RC Mass as He is in a Byzantine liturgy, and vice versa. It is obviously not helpful to have a problem with another rite's liturgy, so maybe you should try to take part in it with an open heart that everyone there is in communion with you and that the Most Holy Sacrifice is being offered to the Most High.

With that in mind, I myself couldn't object. Maybe others could.

Logos Teen

Dear Teen
It is not so easy "to just get over it".

We attend our Byzantine church on Sundays, but during the week, the only choice I have are the local Roman Masses.

Having grown up in the RC, it is sometimes almost painful to attend a RC Mass. And along with that comes much, much guilt. I have notice that it is often a matter of which priest says the Mass. But, either way, I offer up whatever guilt I feel at being so uncomfortable at a RC Mass. The only thing that really get me through, is knowing that the Eucharist is the real reason for attending and it is the Real Body and Blood.

I apologize to any Roman Catholics here on the forum.
denise

I would sooner spend my time with blood brothers even though I couldn't share in their meal (through the fault of our parents), than share a meal with in-laws whose idea of "communion" is a model of domination and abuse!

(Note to TradLats everywhere: I'm not saying the Holy Eucharist is only "a meal".)

Dear all,
I apologize for my last posting. I was vague and may have been mis-understood. I was not trying to berate the RC, but myself instead. For not being able to overlook small things when I am in the presence of such glorious things (the Body and Blood of our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ).
denise

Dear Logos Teen,

I really enjoy reading your posts. I may be new to this forum but I had been reading the posts on this forum for a couple months or so months prior to registering.

I'm sorry if any of my posts offended you. I wasn't trying to 'rip on' the Latin Rite . I was only condemning what I see as liturgical abuses which take place in *some* Novus Ordo parishes (specifically the two which are actually close enough for me to attend. There is great diversity in the Latin Rite. The Novus Ordo Liturgy, Tridentine Liturgy, Ambrosian Liturgy, Mozarabic Liturgy, the Carmelite Liturgy, the Anglican Use Liturgy etc are all Latin Rite Liturgies.

I was not bad-mouthing any of these beautiful and grace-filled liturgies. I was simply pointing out what I perceive as liturgical abuses within a couple of local parishes where there is very unorthodox experimentation. Kinda like "What sort of novelty can we introduce this week"? Even though the intentions might be good, these experiments and novel innovations only serve to confound and confuse people. Someone must spend there time brainstorming to think up all these bad ideas "Lets have a liturgy with modern folk music. Or "lets present some slickly produced video about the Catholic Schools". Or "lets let groups hand out pamphlets in the church lobby endorsing political candidates". Despite all this constant innovation (which is often intended to encourage participation of lay people), it doesn't seem to bring people together, it mostly drives them apart. After mass, or even right after Communion, people hop in their vehicles and speed away in a hurry, like a robber fleeing the scene of the crime. Why are people there in the first place, to worship God, because it seems like the 'right thing to do', or are they simply afraid of going to hell for missing mass?

Why should I attend such a liturgy, when I can watch an Orthodox Divine Liturgy online? The rule that it is a mortal sin not to go to Church once a week is not intended to apply to all Christians. I can read a book about Eastern theology, or I can watch EWTN and I can get a much deeper understanding about Latin theology than I would attending the two Latin parishes in my area. Also, if I happen to turn on the tv super early in the morning,I can catch the show 'The Light of the East' And once a month there is an Orthodox Divine Liturgy I attend. The Orthodox Mission should have a regular, full time very soon (then there will be a weekly Liturgy). One of the many things I like about this parish is that after the Divine Liturgy, people sit and eat together . There is a genuine sense of Christian community.

You talk about the Eucharist as being the reason I should attend a Latin Rite parish. However, the Orthodox also have apostolic Succession. This means that Christ presents himself as unbloody sacrifice on the the Orthodox alter as well, The Eucharist is *the* major focus in many of the Latin Rite Liturgies. But the Eucharist is just one (albeit a very important) aspect of the Divine Liturgy. Christ was transfigured on mount tabor. He was crucified and descended into Hades. He ascended into heaven. He 'trampled down death by death'. The Divine Liturgy, is not a reenactment, but a continuation of these events (which exist outside of linear time). The Divine Liturgy is not bound by linear time and space. The angels worship invisibly at the alter (which is God's throne). Eastern theology is expressed through the poetic hymns of the Divine Liturgy.

The fact that petty politics and jurisdictional disputes keep the Catholic, the Church of the East, the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox from being in 'perfect communion' with each other.doesn't effect the legitimacy of the various rites of Christ's church. Consider, what might have happened if Rome or Constantinople always got their way. How many Liturgies would be faithfully preserved? Think of how one dimensional the Church's theology would be?

I hope and pray that my post doesn't offend anyone, especially our Latin brothers and sisters who are often very devout. Through God's Uncreated Energies within them, they become lights of this world and reflections of the icon of Jesus Christ. We see this in their actions as they pray the rosary, study the scriptures they bear witness gospel of Christ. The Latins are extremely devoted to the Eucharist. We see this in the photos of Saint Padre Pio. He was filled with such joy when administering the Eucharist. You could see it by the expression on his face.

Peace

Another thing you need to consider is how the Orthodox Church you are contemplating joining would feel about you wanting to become a member just because there were no Eastern Catholic Church for you to attend? You give no evidence of wanting to break union with the Pope...would they accept you under those terms? Don

Slava Isusu Christu!

I would assume most Orthodox priests however would want your conversion to Orthodoxy to be genuine and not as a hold-out until you find a Byzantine Catholic parish that has regular Divine Liturgies and other services. Ethnic Greeks and Ukrainian Orthodox are very nice to Greek Catholics although it depends if they were convert priests. Some Orthodox priests are supportive and others are practically cultish in their hate for Rome and us "Un*ats". So my recommendation is to go to Liturgy at the Latin Church until such time as you can have access to the Divine Liturgy and other services of the Church on a regular basis. I was hurt really bad once at an Orthodox parish when the priest gave me a stinging lecture against the evils of the Un*at Church. I ran out of there balling my head off; I couldn't believe the bigotry and ignorance. Not all priests are going to grill you, but be warned it's Russian Roulette when a Byzantine goes to an Orthodox parish. But if you can get past some of the ignorance go for it! Best bet is just to attend the Latin parishes though if no DL is available for Eucharist.

In Christ,


Rob the Greek Catholic

Nobody answered these questions from St. Herman:
I, too, was raised Lutheran and considered Orthodoxy before even knowing there was a such thing as Eastern Catholicism. My husband kept reading in the Fathers that "without the seat of Peter, you don't have the Church." We struggled with this because we loved the Orthodox spirituality. Then a friend introduced us to a Byzantine Rite parish, and the rest is history.

If you were to join Orthodoxy now and later convert to Catholicism, I believe you could join any rite you wanted. When you do, make your choice carefully; it's hard to change once you're in.

As far as becoming a catechumen, I suppose it depends on the parish. We spoke to the priest and told him of our interest in joining Byzantine Catholicism. He gave us a couple of books and assigned the parish deacon to catechize us. Because we were moving away at the end of the summer, and because we both had studied theology in college, they let us by with only a few months' catechesis and then received us into the Church. In some ways I regret that: our understanding of Eastern Rite liturgical practices is limited because we didn't get a lot of exposure to them.

This website might be able to help you find the nearest Eastern Rite Catholic parish.
Unofficial Directory of Eastern Rite Parishes [crosslink.net]