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correction: the wife is a non-attender

Christos anesti!

As a full blooded Mexican baptized into the Latin Church as an infant, and having been a former Latin seminarian, I feel that I am fully innoculated from converting to Eastern Orthodoxy. I cannot believe that my people for 500 years have been heterodox. Don�t the Orthodox know that the Theotokos appeared to a Latin neophyte on a hill near present day Mexico City and left a miraculous icon of herself to prove it? (I am speaking of course of the Virgin of Guadalupe, Queen of Mexico and Empress of the Americas.) Don't they know that she appeared again to three shepard children in 1917 in Portugal and made the sun dance? Have they ever been in a small village in Mexico during a procession and seen the fervor and love for Christ and the Theotokos that these poor illiterate peasants have? And they dare to call them heterodox?....
Indeed, the real problems here are not dogmatic. They are merely problems of a refusal to get to know each other. If they have seen what I have seen, been where I have been, prayed the Latin rosary with my family, or attended a Latin Requiem Mass, they would see that holiness everywhere speaks the same language. The language of love. The language of eternity. I have had the privilege of experience this everywhere from a Mexican village to a Russian Orthodox Cathedral in Buenos Aires, from a small chapel with a Latin Mass said in whispers to a long Vigil service in a Coptic monastery. If you have only seen what I have seen.....
This cannot be expressed in words. I can only invite my Orthodox brethren to look for a reverent Latin service (I know, this is hard to find, but I�m sure you'll find it with some searching) and just watch with an open mind. Maybe you will see, if only faintly, that same eternity you see in your Divine Liturgy. And then, maybe you will not be as stern with the Latins since you know that Christ and His Mother are with them too.
I decided some time ago that I wanted to become Orthodox, but without cutting myself off from that holy history that my fathers have lived. Thus, while it is a rather rocky relationship, I decided to join a Byzantine Catholic parish. Time will tell if I can have my cake and eat it too.

Indeed He has risen,
Arturo

Dear Arturo,

Christ is Risen!

Your post was absolutely beautiful, and I ask the Lord's blessings upon you and your open heartedness. Unfortunately Arturo, (I am Orthodox), I don't think that many of my beloved brethren are philosophical enough. I don't think that they have pondered on the greatness of the Omnipotent God we have, whose boundaries are not our finite boundaries limited by culture, language, and traditions. I don't think that they realize that in the end, God and His most holy Mother have appeared and spoken and revealed themselves to both East and West, yet in different ways particular to the understandings of each cultural faith tradition. As Anthony Dragani on the Eastern Catholic forum of EWTN's website likes to say, 'there is no schism in heaven'. When one truly meditates on this most simple, yet PROFOUND statement, everything else that we argue about is pathetically and ridiculously trivial. God is not limited by our limitations, and thanks be to Him for that!!!

To Alex,

In reference to your last post, I also will say God bless your open heartedness. Not many are graced with this special gift.

Dear Denise,

Naturally, every Church should be seeking to receive as many people as are prepared to be received. This implies participation, getting to know the community, and some level of study.

But in some ways the spouse of a convert is the one that this community needs to worry about least.

If the convert is sincere and has a firm grasp on the faith, he or she will witness to the other in ways that no doubt will bring the other in over time.

Where this model often falls down for the Orthodox is when the Orthodox convert is married with a devout Roman or Eastern Catholic. Because many of the reasons already stated here in this formum and even this particular thread, the devout Roman or Eastern Catholic who "knows their stuff" looks at the Orthodox faith and says to him or her self, "What's the big deal? Isn't that pretty much what we believe anyway - while using different terminology or emphasis?"

I think that the answer is "yes" and "no." On the level of piety, as Arturo so beautifully professed, we see the same overflowing love for God in the AUTHENTIC Eastern and Western traditions, true "Catholic" and "Orthodox" forms of worship that are appropriate to bring us closer to God.

At the same time, in the strictest theological, soteriological, and ecclesiological definitions, an educated Orthodox may validly cross swords with his Catholic brother (as perhaps I've been seen to do once or twice ). All the while, we continue to recognize in each other a fully valid sacramental life that simply falls short of full communion because of these differences.

So, we, the Orthodox, want the spouses of the converts to be received along with them, but we certainly don't want to receive them "kicking and screaming" or out of a type of condescension to their newly, zealously Orthodox spouse.

We have plenty of other folks coming to us out of traditions that literally starved them from the glory that is God!

In Christ,
Andrew

Dear Alice,

As I think Brendan and Fr. Thomas will also agree, I do think I'm, well, special . . .

Since neither of them have responded to my last responses I will assume that: I've convince them; or else, they are too nice to come back and browbeat me by overwhelming me with quotes, bibiliographies and footnotes . . .

I think I'll live with the latter explanation!

God bless you, Alice!

Alex

Dear Arturo,

Yes, I know Orthodox who do honour Guadalupe and at least one Greek Orthodox priest who acknowledges Fatima.

Wherever we find the sense of sacred, transcendant mystery, as in the various Marian Shrines of the Churches, there we find the working of the Holy Spirit!

Alex

Alex --

I haven't responded because I don't think there is a point. You are entitled to your views, and I respect that. I don't think there is much point in continuing a public disagreement about the substance, is there?

:-)

Brendan

Dear Brendan,

Gotcha, Big Guy!

I gave TWO reasons why you may not have responded, not ONE.

And I surmised you didn't for the second one.

So while the "pith and substance" is that "you've not responded," the "why" you haven't is understood in two separate, but perfectly valid ways.

You insist on there being only one. I insist that there can be more than one.

You really walked into that one . . .

God bless!

Alex

Dear Andrew
Thank you for your response. Sorry I am so late, been tied up with favorite son graduating from high school AND trying to finish up Eagle Scout project before his 18th birthday in........ 13
days!

I guess if I ever convert to Orthodoxy I won't have to worry about bringing my spouse "kicking and screaming". I will just bring my zeal and willingness to learn.

Andrew, what is the difference between OCA and ROCOR (?) and do they recognize each other? If someone belongs to Greek Orthodox Church, but lives far from a parish, living closer, say, to a Russian Orthodox parish, may they attend?
thank you
denise

Dear Denise,

Christ is Risen! Christos Anesti!

As a Greek Orthodox, I absolutely may go to a Russian Orthodox church or an OCA church. What you will find is the same liturgy, but diferent cultural traditions.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice and Denise,

Except that the ROCOR would not admit you to Holy Communion . . .

Alex

Alex
I know the ROCOR would not allow a Catholic to receive Communion, but are you also saying the ROCOR would not allow Greek Orthodox to receive?? (that was part of my question, i.e.
"do they recognize each other?")
denise

Dear Alex,

Christ is Risen!

The only thing I know is that ROCOR is VERY traditional. Why are GO not allowed to receive Holy Communion there? Are we considered heretic?

Would that go for Father Mark's church (old Calendrist?) too?

I am impressed by how much you know, Alex. You mentioned that you have a PHD. What exactly is it in?

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Denise,

OCA were parishes in N.America under Church of Russia until 1970, when autocephaly was controversially granted to them. A large percentage of these parishes were formerly Byz Cath Carpato-Rus parishes (see St. Alexis Toth) that (re)joined into Orthodox communion.

ROCOR were all people who fled from the Russias after the counterrevolution against the Bolsheviks failed. [We often forget that the White Russians gave the Bolsheviks a hell of a fight up until 1923 - see Admiral Kolchak, Gen. Wrangel, etc.) ROCOR folks fled to Constantinople and then Serbia, where they formed the Karlovitsky Synod. They claimed the Church in Russia communist-dominated (which it was) and declared themselves to have the authority of the true Church in the Russias. They ultimately came to USA and have their principle center in Jordanville, NY. It is stunningly beautiful!

In theory, they are not in communion with the (still?) communist-dominated Pat. of Moscow and Church of Russia, and ergo not in communion with anyone who is in communion with same. In recent years this attitutde has softened.

But you are correct, they are very traditional. I respect them immensely and look forward to the day of complete normalization of the situation wherein they will be able to excercise a needed balance to some of our more liberal influences in the Orthodox Church.

Christ is Risen!
Andrew

Dear Denise and Alice,

Most of my early acquaintance with Orthodoxy was with ROCOR and its Jordanville Monastery.

That is because ROCOR represents the ultimate in terms of "Orthodox purity" for a number of Ukrainian Catholic priests with an Eastern orientation.

Even our former parish priest (+memory eternal!) used to follow ROCOR news and would report matters of special interest to us during his sermons!

ROCOR is outside world Orthodoxy and prefers to be.

Our Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada would receive me into Orthodoxy through the Mystery of Confession. If one is ROCOR, one would have to be Chrismated to be received in that Orthodox jurisdiction.

No Greek or any other Orthodox would be admitted to Communion in an ROCOR parish - if there are exceptions to be made, it would depend on the parish priest of course.

The Old Believers as well would not accept anyone who is not an Old Believer or part of a wider Orthodox jurisdiction to which they belong to Holy Communion.

The Old Believers of ROCOR accept only ROCOR to the Chalice and so on.

Alice, I've a doctorate in sociology focusing on cultural identities.

God bless,

Alex