www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Ukranian Orthodox and Catholic joining?

Hritzko:

To completely answer your last post would be a waste of both my time and yours. The issues you bring up have been gone over time and time again. And for me to answer each accusation you make would probably get me censored for another 30 days!

To state the the Ukrainians suffered more than anyone else under communism is an insult to all those countries (including Russia itself) that suffered so much under the communist yoke. You bring up the Ukrainian genocide which was a most horrible thing and then to blame it on what you call the 'Moscovite Church' shows either a complete ignorance of history or an illogical statement based on ethnic hatred. May I remind you that it was Stalin that initiated the genocide, not the ROC which was being persecuted to the core during the same time. May I also remind you that STALIN WAS NOT RUSSIAN BUT GEORGIAN! May I also remind you that the genocide could not have been carried out so thoroughly without the compliance of the Ukrainian Communist Party. May I also remind you that many of the leaders of the communists party were not in fact ethnic Russians but Ukrainains!

You base your religious identity on nationalism, politics, and ethnic hatred. Never once in your posts do you ever mention Christ or the doctrines of the church.

You imply that within a decade the Pope and Ecumenical Patriarch will sit side by side on equal thrones in the new UGCC Cathedral in Kiev. What makes you think the Pope will give up his Supremacy within the next decade?

I have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to discuss religious issues with you because you are so embedded in nationalism that you can't see the forest for the trees.
To me my God comes first, my family comes second, and my country (America) comes
third. Can you say the same Hritzko? I doubt it from your posts.

[The Orthodox Churches will come to accept the amalgamated and soon to be largest such church in communion with both Rome and Constantinople.]

[We heard the same dire threats about Ukraine's independance, yet when it happened in 1991 nation after nation immediately recognized Ukraine's sovereinty.]

At this point in time neither Orthodoxy nor Roman Catholicism will accept such a dual communion. It has already been rejected by both when the Melkites brought it up. The fact that you can believe this shows just how littlle you comprehend regarding the religious aspects of even your own church.
And, what does the creation of a nation have to do with the creation of a church?

[The UGCC Metropolitan of Philadelphia just removed 'the creed'.]

WOW! I live in Philadelphia and was unaware that the Ukie Metropolitan has removed the creed. Does this mean that his diocese is now officially Protestant? Does the Pope know?

[Ukrainians want one Orthodox Church in union with Rome and Constantinople. ]

Think I already answered this one.

[Our Ukrainian identity is tighly bound to our Orthodox Christian Slavic heritage which was established for us by Grand Prince Volodymyr the Great in 988 and passed down through the generations.]

If that were true then there would have been no reason for your church to turn its back on Holy Orthodoxy not once, but twice in your history.

[Once the Ukrainian bishops make the difficult decision to close a church, they sell church property to make better use the assets elsewhere in the eparchy.]

Seems some of you have a different opinion. Regarding a united Byzantine Catholic Church here in America I quote the following -


quote:Halychanyn wrote:
What makes North American souls any more worthy than Ukrainian ones?

We want our money to help support the Church in Ukraine.

You seem to think that our money would be better spent on an evangelization program for North America.

[Since the church refuses to destalinize and continues to give awards to communists, then there is little chance that the ROC can have little place in the new supersized Ukrainian church.]

You mean like the chief hetman of the Ukrainian Cossacks who happens to be a retired Colonel in the KGB who travelled all the way to Rome to make the Polish Pope an honorary Cossack!

And, doesn't the Ukrainian duma still have a large communist representation?

Now, I better close before I go any further and risk being censored for another 30 days!

If you want to discuss religion fine. But leave the nationalism and politics out of it for me to answer any further.

OrthoMan

I guess I am very proud of my small, old Balkan country and its proud heritage and history! I do admit that it does looks sinful to show pride, but Bulgaria was responsible for so many things yet people are not aware of it -- let alone where it ACTUALLY is...so someone has to plug for Bulgaria!

On the issue of the MP still being stalinised...if the corruption is so indeep as you state, why would the RC in Exile be actively seeking re-union discussions with it? In case of the Bulgarian Church, two of the current Metropolitans have been identified as being "agents of the Communists" yet over the last ten years or so, they have been doing exemplary work in trying to increase the life of the Church. We may bemoan their past but they are doing their duty as shepherds of the flock...perhaps the same can be applied to all those in the MP?

Anton

OrthoMan urges Hritzko: "If you want to discuss religion fine. But leave the nationalism and politics out of it".
Anyone who seriously believes that it is possible to discuss religion in Eastern Europe without taking nationalism and politics into account is, at best, sadly mistaken.
Incognitus

My statements are not based on "ignorance of history", "illogical statements", or "ethnic hatred" but rather on sound published scholarly information.

Here is a quick history lesson:

By the late 1920's even the Ukrainian Communists understood that Soviet Russia was not going to actually give Ukraine the autonomy it had promised during the turbulent revolution / WW1 era.

The original Ukrainian communists had made it known that they wanted to move towards some form of outright independance from Soviet Russia. Stalin sensed this and had all the top Ukrainian Communists purged from their posts. He then sent in thousands of Russian commissars (communists) from Moscow to carry out the genocidal famine in 1932 - 1933 to ensure that the backbone of Ukrainian nationalism was destroyed. This was done under the guise of 'collectivization' when in fact, most of the crops were simply left to rot in fields.

Conservative estimates are that 7,000,000 Ukrainians died, while the British Embassy had pegged the number at 14,000,000. There was no famine in Russia, only in Ukraine and the Volga region where there were many ethnic Ukrainians and Germans. The famine began and ended on the borders of Ukraine. Whole areas of Ukraine had been depopulated in 1932 - 1933 of ethnic Ukrainians and settled in the spring of 1934 with Russians who had been brought in from Russia to take over the empty villages.

To this day, the Russian Orthodox Church refuses to aknowledge this genocidal famine of the Ukrainian peoples, both in Ukraine and abroad (ie: United States). When priests of the UOC-Moscow Patriarchate in Ukraine attempt to commemorate the genocide (ie: panachyda), they are severely punished or dismissed from the church.

Nobody blames the Muscovite Orthodox Church for the genocide. However, since 1991 the church has been complicit in ongoing conpiracy to deny the very existance of the genocide against the Ukrainian peoples. For this there are no excuses and the Muscovite Orthodox have lost all legitimacy as a true Christian Church in Ukraine.

The Muscovite Orthodox Church has taken the decision to remain an appendage of the Communists or whatever party in power will offer it the best financial aid.

Catherine the Great (a Prussian) took power in the Russian Empire. Stalin (a Georgian) did the same. Both enjoyed support of various segments of Russian society who viewed these leaders as potential 'greats' who could make the empire even larger and wealthier. Catherine the Great enslaved tens of thousands of Ukrainian kozaks and created a massive destructive feudal system in Ukraine. There can be no doubt that both leaders where the cause of suffering for the average Christian Ukrainian, yet Catherine the Great is now a near-saint the Orthodox Church of the Muscovites and the same church refuses to condem the policies of the communists.

Leaders in Moscow have a centuries old 'tradition' of destroying all things Ukrainian, including the autocephalous churches. The destruction did not begin or end with Stalin - he was but one figure in a long sordid history that the Muscovites can't seem to grasp.

This quote is straight out of the Moscow Patriarch's Soviet era 'handbook', so it's clear where you got this statement. The only difference is that in the Soviet days the word Bourgeousie would have been inserted somewhere. Would you say the same about the Greeks and their Orthodox Church ?

The Holy Father John Paul II is half Galician-Rusyn (West Ukrainian) and understands the deep suffering of the churches of Ukraine over the past century. The Patriarch of Constantinople is no different (except he is Greek of course ). The stage has been set for the establishment of a Patriarchate in Kyiv. The Pope will not give up any supremecy, but the Latin Church will have to come to terms with how it deals with the Ruthenians-Ukrainians. The Patriarch of Constantinople will finaly get the chance become a real player in Slavic Orthodox Christian life and not play second fiddle to the Muscovite Patriarch.

- You seem to be doing o.k.

Nationalism is not negative if it helps people self develop themselves, their churches, institutions of learning, (etc...) and does not ruin other peoples. Ukrainians have never attempted to create an empire but simple to unite themselves and self develop. Now compare Ukrainian nationalism with destructive Russian Imperialism / communism (see above).

Rome and Constantinople understand that Western Ukraine (Carpathians included) is the Bible belt of the Eastern Slavs. If this is what they say needs to be done to re-evangelize the heirs of 988, then they will follow.

Here is some more accurate information on the creed. It seems they are including it and not removing it . But I guess that just highlights my point that -'Ivan Average' does not know or care much about this. We leave this up to our theologians.
The Creed \'stuff\' [archeparchy.ca]

Our UGCC bishops have a difficult time juggling the needs of those here with the dire predicament of our members over there. It can't be easy. But rest assured, that they do not ignore other Byzantines here in North America, they just have different priorities.

My earlier post concerning episcopal financial matters relating to the closing of parishes, special projects for Ukraine, and other issues are identical to those of Hal and Alex (if he is lurking).

The Muscovite Orthodox Church continues to conspire with the Communist elder henchmen in the coverup of the genocide committed in Ukraine.

The person you mentioned is a self proclaimed 'hetman of Ukraine' who has no power and a very limited following (more like a 'gang') than a movement and has yet to prove his historical legitimacy. What I do know about him is that he does not conspire with the perpetrators of the genocide to cover-up the murder of tens of millions of men women and children.

The Ukrainian communists were killed off during the 30's and replaced with loyal Russophiles. To this day, the majority of the communists in Ukraine are Russian or Russophones. The good news is that they are a minority, and by all accounts will shrink even further in October. BTW - it is in these communist areas of Ukraine that the Moscow Patriarch has complete power. This should be a clue .

Why should you be sensored for another 30 days .
Your statements are congruent with many of the Russophiles I have met on this continent.

Hritzko

Hritzko:

Do you realize that your last reply was all about nationalism, politics, and ethnic hatred?

Only reference to religion was in relation to the Creed and you got it all wrong. The UGC Metropolitan of Philadelphia did not remove the Creed. He removed the 'filioque' clause within the creed. Which I had assumed you meant all along but wanted to point out your lack of knowledge regarding this and the difference.

If you were as astute in your knowledge of your religion as you are in your preoccupation with Ukrainian nationalism and politics you would have known the difference and never posted it the way you did.

In reading your long winded reply you did nothing more than prove to me that I have been right in my assessment of you thus far.

When I read your posts I am reminded of something my parish priest told me many years ago. Even before the fall of communism which we never expected to fall within in our life time. He said that it would not be communism that would destroy the church but nationalism & secularism. And he's right.

I just heard two stories from former Ukrainian Greek Catholics who are now Orthodox. The first
was from a young fella who is in his 20's who tells me that when he went to join his UGC parish he was asked to sign a pledge to fight for Ukraine if war ever broke out! Where are the priorities here Hritzko? It sure isn't on Christ and his church!

The second is from a recent immigrant from Ukraine who is in the 30's. He made the unforgivable sin of going to a UGCC and speaking Russian of all things! The young priest reprimanded him with a long winded history lesson. When he showed up in the Orthodox parish he now belongs to, his comment was, "I was born and raised in Ukraine where I lived for 30 years and I'm going to come here and listen to a history lesson from an American born priest who never set foot in Ukraine!"

If you want to discuss religion fine. In my 60 some odd years I have belonged to three Orthodox parishes. All three consisted of Orthodox from all the various ethnic backgrounds and a fair share of converts. Many considered themselves as Russian, others Belarussian, others Ukrainian, and still others Carpatho Russian. NEVER ONCE DID I EVER HEAR AN ARGUMENT ABOUT OLD COUNTRY POLITICS! You know why Hritzko? It's because all of them were united in their faith & love of Christ and especially their Holy Orthodox Catholic faith! Old country politics and who did what to whom and when was not part of what they perceived as the church. They see the church as a family centered around Christ and his church. Not some nationalistic political center to discuss their political differences in the old country. And promote rivary and ethnic hatred.

OrthoMan

Orthoman:

I think you're getting a bit over-worked up about this issue.

Nevertheless, the things you're talking about are important, should be discussed, and I don't think that you'll be censored for them as long as you stay calm and respectful (at least in the judgment of a moderator ).

Looking at the issue you and Hritzko are discussing from a completely non-Slavic outsider's viewpoint, it seems Moscow and Kyiv [as represented by Hritzko and other Ukrainians on this board] have a completely different and irreconcilable view of East Slavic Church history.

Moscow seems to believe that it is the Church of Kievan Rus, the Third Rome, and the defender of Holy Orthodoxy in a world where It is constantly threatened. One major threat to Holy Orthodoxy is the West and the Roman Catholic Heresy, which stole a number of eparchies from Holy Orthodoxy way back when by seducing them with the "Uniate" heresy. [sorry for this crude cariacature, but my readings on the subject definitely give me this impression]

The UGCC thinks differently. It believes that it is the Church of Kyivan Rus [or at least one of the heirs to said tradition, along with the other Churches of Ukraine], and it believes that the Church of Kyivan Rus not only never condemned Rome but also joined into Union voluntarily, remains in union voluntarily, and that it is fully in accordance with Holy Orthodoxy. It also voluntarily wants to remain seperate from the Moscow Patriarchate, which continues to see them as a fake and dangerous jurisdiction.

I would also note that history has generated a lot of bad blood between Moscow and the Churches of Kyiv. I will note the authoritative book on the KGB, Christopher Andrew's The Sword and the Shield: the Mitrokhin Archive and the Secret History of the KGB. Page 499 of the paperback version describes how the Communists dissolved the UGCC "with the blessing of the Orthodox hierarchy" [which, in the MP's defense, was more or less controlled by the Communists]. It later notes on page 507 that the most important of KGB recruits in the MP that was discovered by a researcher in the KGB archives was one codenamed DROAZDOV- Patriarch Alexei himself. [I will not subscribe to the view that Patriarch Alexei is a KGB stooge and unworthy to be Patriarch, however]. The Communists also oppressed the UOC-KP and UAOC with some amount of implicit or explicit approval from the Moscow Patriarchate, to my knowledge.

Frankly, the Moscow Patriarchate needs to be honest about the complicity of its hiearchy with Communism as well as Communism's attempts to eliminate the non-MP churches of the Ukraine. I also would suggest that it drop its view of history that I cariacaturized in the second paragraph.

I don't think this is happening anytime in the near future for reasons internal and external to the Moscow Patriarch, so we must acknowledge that, as far as basic identity is concerned, for the immediate future there will be only conflict between the Moscow Patriarchate and the non-affiliated Ukranian Churches [or at least those who view history the way various Ukranians on this board do]. If Moscow ever "wants Ukraine back" it will have to come to terms with whatever takes place in Ukraine by a group of Churches which claim its own tradition who are voluntarily and legitimately living outside of it.


What does all my rambling have to do with this discussion? I note that the Ukranians reject the Muscovite view of Church history and of Orthodoxy, and that this rejection seems to be the key to the debate between you and Hritzko. Perhaps we should agree to disagree on this subject?
I ask you to please not be flip about this. What Hritzko said or meant to say was that the Metropolitan of Philadelphia just ordered the removal of the filioque from the creed as recited in this Eparchy.

I know this is true because I went to a UGCC Church today [where a very youngish looking bilingual Priest commemorated 'Patriarch Lubomyr'], and left with a pamplet published this year by the VR Archpriest Daniel Gurovich which spends 15 pages explaining the action and the filioque (many thanks to him; he clearly explained what for me was a very confusing issue). It notes that "in 2004... Archbishop Stefan has made the decision to recite the Creed in all places of the Archeparcy subject to the norms of the Pastoral Guide without the words 'and the Son'...".

Best,

LV
[written prior to Orthoman's 3:09 post immediately proceeding]

Many years,

Neil

[I will note the authoritative book on the KGB, Christopher Andrew's The Sword and the Shield: the Mitrokhin Archive and the Secret History of the KGB. Page 499 of the paperback version describes how the Communists dissolved the UGCC "with the blessing of the Orthodox hierarchy" [which, in the MP's defense, was more or less controlled by the Communists]. It later notes on page 507 that the most important of KGB recruits in the MP that was discovered by a researcher in the KGB archives was one codenamed DROAZDOV- Patriarch Alexei himself. [I will not subscribe to the view that Patriarch Alexei is a KGB stooge and unworthy to be Patriarch, however].


I'm sure that if you go through the archives of the KGB you will also find code names for the Pope, Archbishop of Canterbury, Hierachs within the ROC, the President of the U.S., the Prime Minister of England, or any other prominent figure within world leadership. As you would most probably find code names for the same within the CIA.

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make by referencing the dissolving of the UGCC and Patriarch Alexi in the same paragraph. I sure hope that you aren't trying to insinuate that he was part of it.

If you read his autobiography you will note he was born in 1929 which would have made him seventeen years old in 1946. His autobiography further states -

From 1944 to 1947 he was a senior sub-deacon under Archbishop Pavel Dmitrovsky of Tallinn and Estonia (d. 1946) and later under Bishop Isidor. He studied at a Russian secondary school in Tallinn.�

In 1945 sub-deacon Alexy was charged with preparations for re-opening the Cathedral of St. Alexander Nevsky in Tallinn to resume services in it after it was closed during the occupation. He served as an altar-boy and sacristan at this cathedral from May 1945 to October 1946. From 1946 he was a psalm-reader first at St. Simeon's and later at the Church of Our Lady of Kazan in Tallinn. He entered the Leningrad (now St. Petersburg) Seminary in 1947 and graduated from it with honours in 1949. During his first year at the St. Petersburg Academy, Alexy Ridiger was ordained deacon (15 April 1950) and two days later priest and was appointed rector of the Church of the Epiphany at the town of Jyhvi in the Tallinn diocese. Father Alexy graduated from the theological academy with distinction and was granted the degree of Candidate of Theology.�

I'm quite sure that a seventeen year old sub deacon has little if any authority within either the KGB or the ROC to be instrumental in the disolvement of the UGCC!

This will be my last post regarding historical propaganda regarding church matters. I'd rather concentrate on Christ and the doctrines of His Church.

OrthoMan

OrthoMan:

Let's talk religion, shall we?

I agree that one should not have a mishmash of theologies. I agree that the various Eastern Rites in communion with Rome were subject to certain Latinizations. I agree that Latinization of the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome was not a good thing.

Still, how about giving people - in both the East and the West - a chance to correct their past mistakes. Perahps your vision of what Orthodoxy should stand for does not allow for that?

None of us who omit the filloque at every DL have been excommunicated yet, have we?

Those of us who prefer to call December 9 (22) the "Conception of St. Anne" and also refuse to use the artificial insertion of pre- and post-festal troparia for it are still, as far as I know, members in good standing of the UGCC in communinion with the Roman Pope.

No one has given us the boot for not promulgating the idea of purgatory.

You get the point, don't you?

Moreover, why cannot one accept the fact that the differing theologies of East and West will inevitably lead to different approaches on certain issues?

One one hand, you berate a mishmash of theologies but, on the other hand, you state that communion is impossible without 110% "doctrinal" agreement. If what you are saying is true, then there would appear to be no room for different Rites within the Church.

hal

I agree with brother Hal. It seems part of the problem (perhaps the main problem) is the fact that there are those who feel the theological differences between Catholics and Orthodox can be overcome (and already are for the most part), whereas there are those (like Orthoman) who feel they cannot at the present time.

Perhaps the Orthodox in the Ukraine have the former perspective on the issue, and this would definitely bring Orthodox and Catholic Ukranians closer together. So it may not be an issue of nationalism at all, but simply that Ukranians (Orthodox and Catholics) as a whole see no problem theologically of being in communion with each other. I have read fine arguments in this website on the compatibility of Eastern and Western theologies on all the contested issues. The issue of the papacy seems to be more canonical than theological, and perhaps Ukranians are more aware of that than any other Orthodox group.

Theotokos pray for our unity!

Blessings,
Marduk

May I ask what was the reason for the failed reunion of the Melkite Catholic and Antiochian Orthodox Churches? Was it the same reason that HH Pope JP2 did not admit the Macedonian Orthodox into communion - namely, corporate reunion instead of communion in limited jurisdictions?

Blessings,
Marduk

The Moscow Patriarchs had code names to protect the fact that they were collaborating with the Soviet Secret police (the NKVD and then KGB) and did not want this fact to leak out to the general population.

In all probability the KGB did give a code name the Pope of Rome, but not for collaborative purposes. It was probably done to target him for assassination in the early 1980's without tipping off the Roman curia or Western intelligence.

Not withstanding the arguments made by the Latin Visitor and myself, I do agree with you that the Muscovite Orthodox Church also suffered under the Soviets. I have never denied this or tried to downplay the destruction or suffering that church endured.

Further, you may have noticed that I have not pointed the finger too much at who did what during the Sovie era. Every intelligent person knows who did what during the Soviet era - 'denial' is only a river in Egypt.

Furthermore there is plenty of archival material now in the hands of Kyiv which could be leaked out to the press to give a more comprehensive support of the Muscovites Orthodox Church involvment in the 'synod of 1946', destruction of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Churches, and other issues...., BUT that is not our goal.

The policies and behaviour of the UGCC and Orthodox Churches has been one of reconciliation and noncondemming of past behaviour. If you notice in my statements, we are less concerned about what the MOC / ROC did to survive the Soviet Regime, than we are about it's post-Soviet era antics and the lack of Christian ethical behaviour since then.

Here are some good example:

(1) The MP continues to lie by stating that the Greek-Catholic Eparchies it was illegaly awarded by the Soviets in 1946 in Western Ukraine have now been 'stolen' by the Catholics.

(2) The MP refuses to confess the crimes of the communists.

(3) The MP and his Kyivan Metropolitan refuse to aknowledge and commemorate the 1932 - 1933 genocide of the Ukrainian peoples.

To the average person in Ukraine who is attempting to 'reconnect' with Christianity, these are monumental issues which can't be ignored or denied. It is the conspiracy of the Muscovite Patriarch, including the denial and cover-up of the 'Holodomor' (Ukrainian genocidal famine) that are in the way of making any real theological dialogue possible.

I have yet to hear you express any regret or remorse about the issues I mentioned. Your ongoing defense of the Moscovite Patriarch in his conspiracy to hide the genocide is deeply disturbing to me. It seems to also be very disturbing to many other who are leaving the Moskovska Pravoslavna Tserkva in droves and often becoming members of sects.

Hritzko

Marduk,

See Tammy's new thread at

Melkite Catholic and Antiochian Orthodox Unity?

and the links that Francis and OrthoMan posted in reply to her query.

Many years,

Neil

[None of us who omit the filloque at every DL have been excommunicated yet, have we?]

Nor should you be.� It's omission was guaranteed to you under the Union of Brest.� It never should have been inserted in the first place.� In fact it is the first article in said union.

[Those of us who prefer to call December 9 (22) the "Conception of St. Anne" and also refuse to use the artificial insertion of pre- and post-festal troparia for it are still, as far as I know, members in good standing of the UGCC in communinion with the Roman Pope.]

I'm not sure just what your point is here but I'm sure you are referencing the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.� What your comment tells me is that even amongst yourselves there is not uniformity regarding this.
Some of you prefer to refernce it as the 'Conception of St Anne' while others refer to it as the 'Immaculate Conception'.

Better question would be is to explain what theological views you hold�
regarding 'original sin'.� Do you ascribe to the RC version or the Orthodox version?

If you subscribe to the Orthodox concept then the Immaculate Conception is nothing more than - 'A poor solution to a non existent problem.'

[No one has given us the boot for not promulgating the idea of purgatory.]

You agreed to accept belief in Purgatory.� See article five in the 'Union of Brest'.


Article 5:� We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church.�

[You get the point, don't you?]

No I don't.�

[Moreover, why cannot one accept the fact that the differing theologies of East and West will inevitably lead to different approaches on certain issues?]

That's the basic tenants of being a Protestant!

[On one hand, you berate a mishmash of theologies but, on the other hand, you state that communion is impossible without 110% "doctrinal" agreement. If what you are saying is true, then there would appear to be no room for different Rites within the Church.]

I'm not sure what your point is here.� What do different Rites within the church have to do with different doctrines within the church?� You seem to lump ritual and doctrine in the same pot.� They are two separate and distinct parts of the church.� Doctrine is what you believe about God.� Ritual is how you worship God.�

Unity for unity's sake is unacceptable for we Orthodox. Regarding the Melkite Initiative of 1996 regarding 'dual communion' the Orthodox were very firm in their answer -

"Please be advised that, while we pray for unity among all Christians, we cannot and will not enter into communion with non-Orthodox until we first achieve the unity of faith.� As long as this unity of faith is not realized, there cannot be intercommunion.� We ask you to adhere to the instructions which you receive from our office and hierarchs."

========

OrthoMan

Thank you, Neil, for the link.

I guess the issue comes down to the papacy, in this instance, and what the Melkite Church implies by confessing agreement with the papacy of "the first millenium."

Blessings,
Marduk