www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Ukranian Orthodox and Catholic joining?

I was reading on some of the threads and Hritzko mentioned that these two churches are close to being one again. Could someone please explain this to me. I am rather unfamiliar with the Ukranian church (both Orthodox and Catholic) as such this news is new to me. I think that it is great news if it means what I think it does! Sorry for my ignorence, but I just did not know the answer and the comments sparked my interest!

In His Name,
Stephen

Stephen,

Greg (Hritzko) will disagree (and he is certainly closer/more in touch with the Ukrainian religious scene than I am - which is not at all, except as a very interested observer), but I think he's portraying an overly optimistic viewpoint. The Orthodox community is divided into at least 2 different Churches, as well as a 3rd that is arguably without strong support among ethnic Ukrainians; add the UGCC to the mix and, unification in the near future seems very much like a long-shot - the strong nationalistic streak among the Ukrainian people notwithstanding.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Stephen:

While the Church of Kyiv-Halych is moving toward re-unification, this by no means suggests that this is going to happen anytime soon. (Then again, in the 1970's we said the same thing about the USSR falling apart.) There are major obstacles to overcome - the relationship with Rome being the primary concern.

On the other hand, the relationship between the UGCC and the UOC-KP is good and getting better. Patriarchs Lubomyr and Fliaret have presided over joint prayer services and people in Ukraine and in the Ukrainian diaspora who are educated enough to know realize that we are one Church that has been divided by history. As Neil properly points out, there are smaller Ukrainian Byzantine-Rite churches that are not as open to relations with the UGCC.

Here in North America, Ukrainian Greek-Catholic and Orthodox bishops recently held a conference wherein they discussed not only ecumenism, but also pastoral issues common to both Churches.

In closing, let me quote His Beatitude Patriarch Lumomyr on the issue, "unity of our Churches will happen when the people will it to happen."

Many of us are there already. Others still need convincing.

Yours,

hal

I'll try posting a reply again. The computer did strange things a few minutes ago.

imho, there are probably as great differences within the Ukrainian Catholic Church as between the Catholics and the Orthodox: some are very latinized and some very little or not at all, for example.

Within the Orthodox churches themselves there is often difference of opinion on ecumenism.

Also, many of the Orthodox in Ukraine are under the Moscow patriarch, whose church considers the Ukrainians to be a part of the Russian nation and not a nationality of their own.

Of course, the relationships among the various Orthodox patriarchates and autocephalous churches can be complicated too. I doubt that one group, such as the Ukrainians, even if they were to become united among themselves (instead of the 3 Orthodox groups now) would be very likely to work toward communion with Rome in opposition to all the other Orthodox churches around the world.

imho, one of the greatest means for the eventual reunion to take place would be for each church to be faithful to its own traditions and guard against such trends as modernism.

Porter (actual name)

In 988 because of the 'will' of Grand Prince Volodymyr the Great, the peoples of Kyiv-Rus were baptised as Orthodox Christians.

In 1596 because of the 'will' of our Ukrainian Orthodox Metropolitans and other Ruthenian bishops, the church entered into full communion with Rome.

Sometime in this decade the Ukrainians will establish a Patriarchate in full communion with both Rome and Constantinople. The new Ukrainian Orthodox-Catholic Patriarchate will end the centuries old Apostolic scism between the churches of the East and West.

Here is a picture of the new Ukrainian Greek Catholic Patriarchal Sobor currently under construction exactly on the same shore of the river Dnipro where Grand Prince Volodymyr the Great baptised the Rusyns (now Ukrainians) of Kyiv in 988. In the background on the hills of Kyiv is the most holy of all Slavic Orthodox sites; the Monastery of Caves - or Pecherska Lavra.

Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Patriarchal \'Sobor\' under construction in Kyiv, Ukraine [ugcc.org.ua]

Ukrainian Greek-Catholic \'Sobor\' @ Kyiv - complete construction \'photomontage\' [kyivpatriarchalsobor.org]

The Patriarchal Sobor will have different but equal special 'thrones' for the Pope of Rome, and Patriarch of Constantinople when they visit the peoples of Ukraine.

It is happening in our lifetimes, because the peoples of Ukraine are willing it. We look forward to the near future when the Patriarchs of Kyiv and Constantinople, and the Pope of Rome sit together in the new Sobor.

Hritzko (actual name )

Voskrysaje Ukrajina-Rus !

Big claim to make that it's the holiest site for Slav Christians...

Anton

Hritzko writes:

Sometime in this decade the Ukrainians will establish a Patriarchate in full communion with both Rome and Constantinople. The new Ukrainian Orthodox-Catholic Patriarchate will end the centuries old Apostolic scism between the churches of the East and West.

The Patriarchal Sobor will have different but equal special 'thrones' for the Pope of Rome, and Patriarch of Constantinople when they visit the peoples of Ukraine.

It is happening in our lifetimes, because the peoples of Ukraine are willing it". We look forward to the near future when the Patriarchs of Kyiv and Constantinople, and the Pope of Rome sit together in the new Sobor.

=============

Quite a fantasy Hritzko! I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to materialize! The Melkites aleady proposed it in case you are not aware. It was called the 'Melkite Initiative'. It was rejected by both Rome and Constantinople.

Also rejected was the belief that the Unia is the bridge between Orthodox Catholicity and (Roman Catholicity).

When did the people of Ukraine have the power and authority to dictate to either the Pope or the Ecumenical Patriarch?

OrthoMan

Dear Anton,

I would tend to agree with you, so perhaps I should rephrase: "it's the common consensus among the East Slavs who accepted Orthodox Christianity as an official state religion in 988 in Kyiv under Grand Prince Volodymyr the Great"

Hritzko

Yes - but many said (and continue to say) that so is world Christianity. It's our Christian duty to try.

Well God bless the Melkites for trying. Now it's our turn. BTW I can hold my breath for about 2 1/2 minutes underwater - then I start to see things - really weird things.

The Ukrainians are building a magnificient Patriarchal Sobor and have thrones waiting for the the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Pope of Rome. They can come and join our Christian destiny and help to re-evangelize the peoples of Ukraine-Rus as did Grand Prince Volodymyr of Kyiv in 988

OR

They can watch as the evangelicals sects build yet another 50,000 person temple/stadium in Kyiv while we continue to argue over canonicity and other 'stuff' (which btw turns the average person WAY OFF to Apostolic Christianity).

Rejected by whom ?

Maybe the Muscovite Orthodox Church and it's Patriach which has yet to produce one shread of evidence to either the Patriarch of Constantinople or to the Pope of Rome that the Metropolitans of Kyiv ever renounced their historical right to govern their see independently of Moscow and in communion with Rome.

The Union of Brest of 1596 Between the Ruthenian (now Ukrainian) bishops and Metropolitan of Kyiv with the Pope of Rome had both positive and negative influences on our Orthodox brothers and sisters in Ukraine and arround the World.

But it is unreasonable to believe that there ever will be (or should be) some form of 'pure Orthodoxy' in Ukraine or elsewhere before unification is possible.

If you have been following the 'Ukrainian Catholic Church in Canada thread' you will have noticed that the Toronto (& Eastern Canada) Eparchy has gone to great lengths to create temples which would be appealing to every spectrum of our faithful. It's called 'niche marketing' and always has supperior net results to 'single segmentation'...

This is how the new church of Ukraine will express it's Orthodoxy. Nobody seriously believes that each and every current parish will try to re-make itself into some type of neo-988-Baptism-of-Rus shrine, or some hypothetical-Greek Othodox church circa 873, or some pseudo-neo-Constantinopolian-Greek-Orthodox temple, or that the whole Western part of the country must become like the Eastern, or whatever....

There will be variants of Orthodoxy which will reflect the rich and diverse history of Ukrainians (formerly Rusyns) who have been parts of varying empires for centuries...

... and who have for better or worse accepted some of the particularities of their un-traditional-Orthodoxy but who try to be faithful Apostolic Christians....

Sometime this past century.

Ukrainians suffered and witnessed more death and destruction on their land than any neighboring country that I can think of.

They will not be dictated to any longer by a Moscow Patriarch who watched and conspired (and continues to do so) with the communists in the destruction of the Ukrainian Orthodox and Greek-Catholic Churches...

...and who watched as the Muscovites (Russians) committed GENOCIDE ON THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLES and said nothing... to this day has expressed no sorrow or regret and actually punishes it's priest for attempting to commorate the dead.....

Not withstanding the recent public events in Moscow between cardinal Kasper and the Moscow Patriarch, do not believe that Rome and Constantinople will not find common ground with the new Ukrainian Church in the near future. It is in both of their interests to do so, and believe me, watch what happens after the next presidential elections in Ukraine in October.

Hritzko

[The Ukrainians are building a glorious Patriarchal Sobor and have thrones waiting for the the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Pope of Rome. They can come and join our Christian destiny and help to re-evangelize the peoples of Ukraine-Rus as did Grand Prince Volodymyr of Kyiv in 988]

My, you do have a vivid imagination. Let me know when you are back in the 'real world'.

So you are going to create this super united Ukrainian Church and if both the (papal) Catholics and the Orthodox Catholics want to join, it will up to them. Is this new super church going to be another self created church based on Ukrainian nationalism rather than doctines and canons that you Ukrainians are so famous for?

Also rejected was the belief that the Unia is the bridge between Orthodox Catholicity and (Roman Catholicity).
Rejected by whom ? ]

By both the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox Churches.

[If you have been following the 'Ukrainian Catholic Church in Canada thread' you will have noticed that the Toronto (& Eastern Canada) Eparchy has gone to great lengths to create temples which would be appealing to every spectrum of our faithful. It's called 'niche marketing' and probably has supperior net results to 'single segmentation'...]

And its all based on outward appearances rather than the principles that identitfy what ones faith really is. Which is the Doctines they believe in and the Dogmas they proclaim. The Poles were so right in 1596 when they proclaimed 'As long as everything looks the same and sounds the same these Ukies will never know the difference!' Looks like after 400+ years they still don't know the difference based on what I read in some of the posts on this site.

[This is how the new church of Ukraine will express it's Orthodoxy. Nobody seriously believes that each and every current parish will try to re-make itself into some type of neo-988-Baptism-of-Rus shrine, or some hypothetical-Greek Othodox church circa 873, or some pseudo-neo-Gree-Orthodox temple, or that the whole Western part of the country must become like the Eastern, or whatever....]

So this new version of Orthodoxy in Ukraine will come in various flavors united in Ukrainianism rather than doctrine? Sounds like Protestantism to me! Yea gads! No wonder neither the Pope or the Patriarch are ready to give you guys your own Patriarchate. First ya all have to learn what the church is and what its based upon. Which is Christ not Ukrainianism.

But I guess nothing surprises me after reading the comments made by various Ukrainians regarding a united Byzantine Catholic Church for the U.S. and Canada. Where you all proudly proclaim you would rather see your churches close and the remaining people go to the local RCC then become part of a united Byzantine Catholic Church so the money for the property could go back to Holy Ukraine rather to the Byzantines. How very, very, sad that whole thread was.

[Over this past century. Ukrainians suffered and witnessed more death on their land than any neighboors I can think of.]

Then you don't read much history, do you?

Well, back to lurk mode.

OrthoMan

OrthoMan:

So, what's your proposal regarding an alternative course of action?

hal

[So, what's your proposal regarding an alternative course of action?]

To work for unity that is based on doctrinal agreement rather than ritual and national identities. Let the theologians & modern church fathers continue to meet until there is total doctrinal agreement. Leave the politics and politicians out of it. Only then will we share the same faith.

Unity for the sake of unity and based on nationalism, politics, or ritual identity alone is a false unity. And contrary to the teachings of the Scriptures.

Ephesians 4:13-14

13: till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to be a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

14: that we should no longer be children, tossed to and from and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by trickery of men, in the craftiness of deceitful plotting.

I Corinthians 1:10 Now I plead with you, brethern, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgement.

John 10:16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things that are hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

OrthoMan

But the vast majority of the divisions within the Church ARE political. Yeah, you could go on about the filloque, the Immaculate Conception etc. etc. etc., but I will bet that if you ask the big-O Orthodox what their main problem with Rome is they will tell you something regarding the role of the Roman Pope.

Still, what is the harm in taking care of one's own proberbial "house" when seeking to re-unify a splintered Church? If the Ukes want to unite on a "blood is thicker than water" basis and then seek to establish full commuion with Rome, Constantinople, etc. etc. etc., where's the harm in that?

As for unity on a ritual basis, is it not logical for the Churches of a particular Rite seek each other out and be sure that they are in full agreement and communion so that they can speak with a unified voice when approaching the other Rites?

You seem to take the approach of "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts." Problem is that the proverbial parts are themselves partitioned.

Forgive the mixed metaphors, but you seem to be putting the cart before the horse.

hal

[As for unity on a ritual basis, is it not logical for the Churches of a particular Rite seek each other out and be sure that they are in full agreement and communion so that they can speak with a unified voice when approaching the other Rites?]

Your statement is contradictory. In full agreement on what? To be religiously united one has to be in doctrinal agreement before one is in ritual agreement. Your doctrine cannot be a mismash of Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic theology for you to identify yourself as an Orthodox Catholic.

Either you believe all that the Roman Catholic Church teaches (as you are required by the fact that you are in communion with them) or you believe what the Orthodox Catholic Church teaches. If it is the latter, and you remain in communion with Rome then you remain in communion with a church that teaches doctrine you do not believe. You are not of the same mind.

Ya all seem to put doctrine as something that is only second or third in importance after nationality, ritual, and culture. That in itself shows that you haven't the slightest idea what Orthodoxy stands for or is all about.

OrthoMan

You have things backwards by brother. I am the real world. My views are the 'average' for the members in my church, and in fact quite toned down due to the nature of this site. My view point is the 'real world' when it comes to 'Joe (or should I say Ivan) average' in Ukraine and the diaspora.

When Grand Prince Volodymyr the Great stood in 988 on the banks of the river Dnipro (by Kyiv) and baptised the peoples of Rus, he did so as their leader. The Kyivan Rusyns accepted this "self created" Orthodox Christianity as THE state religion. This very historic event was both very political and nationalistic yet seemed to enjoy the full suport of the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Pope of Rome.

In 1596 the Metropolitan of Kyiv and various bishops signed the Ruthenian Union of Brest with Rome. This also was very much a political and nationalistic event because it guaranteed Byzantine Ruthenian church autonomy within the Catholic fold.

The Muscovites could not accept this fait accomplit of the 'Union of Brest' and began to immediately do all possible to absorb the Ruthenian (Ukrainian) church into their new super imperialistic Muscovite Orthodox Church. At the very same time the Poles tried to use the 'Union of Brest' to assimmilate the Rusyns (before they were known as Ukrainians) into the Polish Roman Catholic Church. Politics and nationalism have been used for centuries by both of Ukraine's neighbors; Poland and Russia to absorb, assimmilate, and control the church and peoples of Ukraine. You seem to forget and / or ignore this.

The Orthodox Churches will come to accept the amalgamated and soon to be largest such church in communion with both Rome and Constantinople. We heard the same dire threats about Ukraine's independance, yet when it happened in 1991 nation after nation immediately recognized Ukraine's sovereinty.

The Holy Father John Paul 2 has stated that "Kyiv is the cradle of (East - that one is for you Anton )Slavic Christianity and at the same time has made it known that he wants to see a Kyivan Patriarchate.

Also, given the fact that the Latin Church of Rome has no illusions about converting the Eastern Slavs to their rite, or about every comming to so agreement on church unity with the yet to be de-stalinized Muscovite Orthodox Church, there is ample reason to believe that the 'Ukrainian Patriarchate option' may in fact be their best bet. Sure they would prefer that comrade Moscow Patriarch come to his senses, but will that ever happen ? (btw - the answer is; not in our grandchildren's lifetimes).

The UGCC Metropolitan of Philadelphia just removed 'the creed'. Do you think that the millions of 'joe average' UGCC and 15 million UOC-KP, or even the UOC-MP adherants care ? (btw - da ansa iz NO !). The Greek-Catholics and Orthodox communities probably didn't even hear about it and would not know what to do or say if they did - are we ignoramusus ? - maybe - but we respect each other more than ever before and I bet Jesus prefers this to fighting over filioque, or creed, or jurisdiction, or yada yada yada.... We will do things backwards, or as the Ukrainians in the Carpathian mountains say - po nashomu (our way ).

The Poles never cared to create a Ukrainian (Ruthenian) 'Orthodox look' with a 'Catholic inside" . That is the funniest thing you have ever posted. The Poles wanted to completely assimmilate the Ruthenians (Ukrainians) into their Latin rite church and Polish culture and did everything possible to achieve this goal. (For more insigh into the Polish assimmilation techniques, please see the Holywood classic 'Taras Bulba' with Tony Curtis OR wait until next year when the French release their remake with Gerald Depardieu). The Poles achieved some success, for example the Holy Father's mother assimmilated into the Latin rite.

The Pope of Rome has recently stated that he greatly favours the establishment of a Kyivan Patriarchate. Also, the Patriarch of Constantinople has recently sent the USA Ukrainian Orthodox Archbishop to Kyiv to discuss the patriarchate issue. These would appear to be good signs that they both take this issue seriously. Ukrainians want one Orthodox Church in union with Rome and Constantinople. Now compare that to the Muscovites who claim the whole world as their canon territory. and want nothing to do with Rome and perhaps some type of ambiguous control over Constantinople .

Our Ukrainian identity is tighly bound to our Orthodox Christian Slavic heritage which was established for us by Grand Prince Volodymyr the Great in 988 and passed down through the generations. I'm not sure how different this to the Poles, Greeks, or.....

At no time would a Ukrainian Catholic or Orthodox bishop "proudly close" a church in the USA or Canada and forward the funds to Ukraine - at least that I'm aware of. The closing of a church is a deeply disturbing for any bishop and is only done when there is longer any hope to sustain the parish with the adequate clergy and financial resources to ensure that the parishoners are given proper pastoral care. The Roman Catholic Church is currently undergoing this painfull process all over the United States.

Once the Ukrainian bishops make the difficult decision to close a church, they sell church property to make better use the assets elsewhere in the eparchy. As a completely separate and unrelated project, they may collect money to send to Ukraine for a special need (ie; the Patriarchal Sobor) but this is always done through special funds collected for such matters. These types of episcopal financial decisions are congruent with other Apostolic and sectarian churches and not at all unique to the UGCC or UOC.

Ukrainian Americans and Canadians feel a special privelege in living here in this free and prosperous land, but at the same time have a deep commitment to re-establishing the church of their ancestors in Ukraine. Quote all you like from the bible, but somehow we doubt that Jesus thinks we are doing the wrong thing.

Perhaps you should read 'History of Ukraine' by Dr Orest Subtelny, and then re-think your last statement. The Muscovite Orthodox Church must come to terms with the act of genocide against the Ukrainian peoples in 1932 - 1933 by the peoples of Russia. This act of hatred for Ukraine's self determination was deeply rooted long before the revolution.

There can be no "diaglogue of theologians" until the ROC come to terms with it's complicity in the genocide of the Ukrainian people. Since the church refuses to destalinize and continues to give awards to communists, then there is little chance that the ROC can have little place in the new supersized Ukrainian church.

Hritzko