Dear Matthew...
Firist - let me thank you for the civil ways of your discussion. After all this is just a discussion and heaven and hell do not hinge on it.
Please do not take offence - it took me hours - to put my finger on what knowledge you were missing - that might lead you to assume that the Latin church operates as you say.
If you already know the following then my appologies.
You seem to be missing catechumen regarding the functions and operations of the church. It could be that this was never explained to you by those who should have (parents or others). So I can see how you are imagining that the church functions in the ways that you are assuming.
There is a hierarchical structure which was put into place by Jesus and the apostles. It is called the Apostolic succession and it is done by appointment and ordination. This hierarchy is called the ecclesia. It is written about in even the earliest of Church history as well as the book of Acts and is well exampled in very early writings such as Psuedo-Dionisys. Its first Council was held at Jerusalem (The Book of Acts).
This hierarchical structure is one of authority - top down. When Jesus ascended into heaven - the apostles were the head of the Church. The apostles in turn appointed and ordained priests. From among these priest they further appointed �elders; or �presbyters� (in English that is - bishops) to have authority over regular clergy (priests). And so on� a hierarchal structure� put into place by Jesus and his apostles.
There are several churches which comprise the whole Catholic Church. Each church within the whole Church, has within it - this hierarchal structure - independently. That is whay they are called autonomous churches (independent) because they are governed by a similar - yet complete in itself - hierarchical structure.
Theologians and scholars - are not - inherently part of this hierarchical structure nor is there any ordination involved to become a theologian or scholar. A priest may become a theologian - but the fact that he is also a theologian or scholar carries with it no enhancement to his priesthood.
This is one reason why the Eastern Churches do not use the term theologian for anyone except to bestow it upon a saint. In the eyes of Eastern theology - only the hierarchy of the church itself - is the �theologian� . An enlightenment and grace which Jesus supplies to the Church - by which light its bishops and hierarchy define doctrine. A grace guaranteed to the church.
Within the Latin church the title of theologian (by education of learning) has no inherent authority.
Among the individual churches that comprise the whole - the top guy - may be called a Patriarch - or Metropolitan - or Pope (there are several Popes and not just Peter) and so on. All authority in that particular church flows down from the Patriarch - or Metropolitan - or what have you. Some one else will have to explain these positions because there are some details I am leaving out for brevity.
In the early days of the Church the members of the hierarchy of the several churches that comprise the whole church (or representatives of these hierarchy) hammered out the cannons (Laws) but which the church will function - which included who and how - doctrine and dogma shall be defined and pronounced. These cannons are essentially the same in all the individual churches.
The result was that all authority within the church - rest with and originates from - the hierarchal structure put into place by Jesus and his apostles. That authority is passed on through proper ordination. And it is passed on through the existing hierarchy (in other words they appoint their replacements) by several methods.
As I said, this heretical structure exists with each of the particular churches - that comprise the whole church. It exists within the Coptic church, the Armenian church, the Melkite church, the Russian Orthodox church, The Greek Orthodox church, etc.. etc� I do not know how many individual churches there are that comprise the entire Catholic church. But each has this hierarchy of authority as put into place by the apostles.
The Orthodox church is also comprised of several individual churches. There is no one - �Orthodox Church� as an individual church - just as there is no one �Catholic� church as an individual church. The Orthodox church is a community of individual churches. The Latin church is a community of individual churches. I believe there is an Oriental Church too - someone else will have to fill you in on this.
The explanation of the entire hierarchical structure of the entire, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - is beyond my ability to outline..
But in each and every individual church (of which the Roman Catholic is just one) this authoritive hierarchy exists - and governs - and it is that alone which has the authority to make decisions as to dogmas and doctrines for that particular church. Each church is autonomous (entirely independent). But yet they may join in community of several independent churches.
These decisions on doctrine, dogmas, and cannons (laws governing the operation of the church) are decided within Councils or Synods - held within each church. The Councils and Synods are comprised of the ordained hierarchy of that church. The Patriarch or Metropolitan, or Pope (whatever the top bishop is titled) has the supreme authority - and that includes rejection or acceptance of the results of any council or synod. He also has the choice of automatically accepting any results of a synod or council - it is up to him how he wants to do it.
At times - all (or most) individual church have been involved in a Church wide Council (comprise of hierarchy or representatives of the hierarch from all independent churches). All may be invited - but it may not be that all attend. When such a Council is called and it meets the criteria of cannon law - the Council is said to be Ecumenical (results applicable to all churches).
In the Roman Catholic Church (the church under the bishop of Rome - which is a seat of apostolic succession) the top hierarchy is often called the �magistrium� and the bishops who comprise this are �Cardinals�. Each individual church has its own names and titles for these positions of hierarchy.
The Patriarch or head of each independent church has the authority to call for a Council or Synod to discuss, consider, draft, workout - whatever is needed. They do this by debate. It may take weeks or even longer. Eventually they come to some form of decisions on matters. An we Orthodox and Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit guides them. During the debate they may chose to consider the opinions of others (theologians, scholars, others) but it is by invitation only. The council members often hammer out the final forms by voting. And that result (the positions and documents created) are then presented to the head of that church (Patirach - Pope - whatever) and are either accepted - adjusted as he desires - or rejected - or rejected to be worked on more by the council. I believe it is the case in some of the independent churches that it has been put into cannon law a long time ago- that the Patriarch (or whatever) must accept the results. If that is the case (that it is cannon law that the head of the church must accept the results of the council) then at some earlier council the head of that church must have had to authorized this method - meaning - it is the authority of the authority of the Patriarch himself - that gives that cannon law its authority.
I am sure someone will correct or add detail to this short overview.
But in any case - the authority of the priesthood comes from Jesus Christ (top down) - and is not invested into the priesthood by the members of the church (bottom up) as in most other religions. We are sacramental churches - meaning that the sacraments flow from Jesus Christ - through the apostolic hierarchy - to the members of the church.
In all autonomous churches which comprise the entire Church - it is the hierarchy of the priesthood which has the only legitimate authority to form doctrine and dogma. But of course this can be done in several ways.
In no church - of the entire Eastern or Latin or (whatever more there are) is there any inherent authority given to theologians or scholars. The hierarchy of each church may consider their opinions, might ask their advise, may ask them to research something - but the hierarchy is in no way bound to listen to them at all. At all - at all.
Now - as regards this incident you speak of at the Vatican.
I know of an Orthodox Hierarch who mentioned that he was at the Vatican for a while studying documents. He told me that after a while he plainly asked the participating authors; How do you write these things? The response was "We write them in a way so that there is always room for adjustment, by the Pope. At that point the Hierarch thought "Then what I'm I doing here and politley exused himself and left shortly thereafter."
�How do you write these things� - and from your quote we must take it that he was asking �How do you write these doctrines?� He was studying some documents which contained doctrines.. Yes? We also would assume from the answer that these were minor doctrines and did not necessitate a Council or Synod.
Now - let us get our feet down into reality here - and not automatically assume - corruption.
How are minor Catholic doctrines written?
Well - not too different from other important documents in the normal world. They are written in similar steps as any other of the apostolic churches.
First - the Pope authorizes others to research all aspects of the proposed doctrine. Just as the President of the United States would ask his secretaries and departments heads - to research all aspects of something he was considering to make into an Executive Order. You must not think that either the Pope or the President does much of anything without legions of secretaries and advisors and such.
Dozens of people then research all past aspects down through church history - research recent documents - they might or might not consult respected theologians - they examine similar doctrines in other autonomous churches - they may ask for the opinions of different Pontifical Institutes - and dozens more things� � and if things look right - they would then prepare a draft of the proposed doctrine for the Pope to review.
A draft. Doesn�t that make sense to you? What is a draft - but it is something prepared in such a way as that the person who will be approving and signing that document into law - can review it and ask for adjustments to be made to it. You and I might sign our mortgage without reading every word - but these world leaders do not affix their name and authority to anything that has not been hammered out in every aspect.
Once the draft is received - the Pope confers and discusses the matter with the representatives of the several offices of the magistrium. Depending on what type of doctrine it is and what it concerns - there can be several steps involved. For example - if it is a doctrine which only has application with the American Bishops - and not the entire Roman Catholic Church - then a council of the American Bishops may be called and the doctrine is discussed - or it may simply be sent to them for their comments - and then send back to the Vatican - and maybe further research asked for - etc..
There is no doubt - that - like in the real world - those who initially author (write) the drafts - write it in draft form - and then it is sent back to them (maybe several times) for changes and adjustments - before the hierarchy is satisfied that it fully reflects the mind of the hierarchy and magisterial of the Roman Catholic church.
The hierarchy of the church does not trust the contents and meaning of its doctrine - to secretaries, researchers, and theologians, an scholars. For none of these have been given the authority - nor grace - to lead the church. That type of church world be like several Protestant churches who ordain Ministers through the authority of its members and the education level of its potential ministers.
Can you imagine any document of any world wide institution which is written just once? by researchers - and then signed with the authority of a world leader - on the spot - no adjustments!!?? It is just not done. So much research and consultation and such goes into them. Well - yes - Saddam - wrote and signed his own on the spot. Dictators do that.
Your Orthodox Hiearch asked the question - got the right answer - but made automatic negative assumptions as to why. I assume from this that he was never involved in the formation of doctrine in the Orthodox church� otherwise � he might have known the comparable steps the formation of that doctrine takes. Tell me - if you know - does the Orthodox church still do councils and synods? Anyway�
My friend. If your friend was indeed an Orthodox Hiearch - then he himself would know that such is the course and way in which the Orthodox church itself - has done these doctrines.
Church records of even the earliest councils record how long they may take. How many people debate the issues pro and con - how many times everyone thought �we are done!� and then back they went for even more changes and adjustments to the work at hand. Certainly you will find that the church has never signed the first draft of any doctrine or dogma. Councils and arguments and proposals and compromises took - days if not weeks.
I can not imagine within any church of the entire Church - of any Patriarch or Pope or what have you - who would sit in a room alone and emerge with a hand written doctrine! (end of story!) There is much research, discussion, debates - consultations - prayer - history - that goes into these things. They are drafted and re-written several times before final acceptance or rejection - by the hierarchy.
But in the end - it all goes back to the very basic. Either someone believes that Jesus Christ is God and has established his apostolic succession and given that succession something of his own authority - - - or not. Either one believes that Jesus is fully capable of preserving his churches (that comprise the entire Church) from the attacks of hell -- - or not. If one believes both to be true - then one should assume and expect to find it as actually true - rather than expect it to be otherwise. If one expects and assumes that any one of his churches that comprises the entire Church - has been compromised by Satan - than one must come to the inescapable conclusion that Jesus Christ - was a fake - or in the least a weak god who was not capable to live up fully to the fact which he pronounced �The gates of hell shall not prevail against my church.�
Who is it that would dare to stand at the gates of heaven and say to Jesus �Well - you were almost - right� did you know that Satan DID prevail against your Roman Catholic church?? And some say he prevailed against the Coptic and Ethiopian churches too!! For a number a years the Armenian church taken over by Satan� and so we all gave you a score of - 8 - out of a possible high score of - 10.�
Thank you for the discussion. I am not here to change your mind. I am not a theologian nor do I have any authority. You are free to consider my words and think about them anything that you will. No penalty involved.
-ray