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Dear Ray,

Actually, the East has always believed that Christ used leavened bread during the Mystical Supper.

The Melkites most certainly do not use unleavened bread - no Church of the Byzantine tradition does. The Ethiopian Church, and other Oriental Churches do - but in the Ethiopian case they are affirming their Judaic traditions.

If the Maronites use unleavened bread - I do believe that is a Latinization.

And our Canadian Catholic Bishops have been pushing for the use of leavened bread in the Latin Mass for years . . .

The Byzantine East did consider the Latin use of azymes as a break with tradition - not a reaffirmation of it.

It shouldn't be an issue today - but it becomes one when Latin "Azymites" assert their tradition in this regard is the earliest.

We beg to differ!

In fact, I personally believe that the Latin use of azymes signified a break with the historic relation between "symbol" and "reality" in the West - a break that eventually gave fuel to the Protestants' arguments over the Real Presence.

Sorry to sound so negative, but djs got me going this morning . . .

Have a great day!

Alex

Yes, I was referring to the past. I am 55 years old too. But I am assuming you did not live 1700 years ago, unless you believe you are reincarnated. I was referring to a poster who thought that, if there was daily Mass in the Middle Ages, for instance, that "throngs of people" received Holy Communion. Remember, up until 1958, you had to abstain from food and alcohol from mid-night. There were no evening Masses then, so you were a hearty soul if you receied Communion at the 11:00 Mass!

Yes, unfortunatly, hosts using invalid matter such as honey and chocolate chips is common even here on the East Coast. I don't live on another plantet, unless you consider New Jersey another planet. But then thats why we are Byzantine Catholics, right?

May I ask how can one love Jesus and not make the effort to come into Communion with Him at the Liturgy?

This isn't me personally. In fact this is a bone of contention that I have with someone who was (and I do mean was) responsable with teaching my kids religion.

Really? I wouldn't say that.

It's happened to me a few times over 30+ years, but I wouldn't say it's been a common experience. And not with chips either. Mostly it's been honey, and once it was like a Kaiser roll. Both are wrong in the Latin Rite.

Can you have honey in the bread in the Eastern/Byzantine rite

Actually, some of us DO consider New Jersey another planet. :p

What about New York then? :p :p

Glory to Jesus Christ!

First I would have to say, probably no honey in the bread, I am almost positive. I was under the impression that there was no added sugar of any kind, but I don't bake the prosphora so I hope someone else will clarify. Oil is a definate no.

But concerning these cases of invalid matter:

Having been a Roman Catholic all of my life, I must say that I have never heard of such things happening around Chicago.

From my most indifferent and irreligious point in my life to my most fervent and devout I never encountered anyone who stated to me that they had experienced such things, and I would definately been interested to find out!

Of course, those were the days before the internet. I had no notion that such things were going on.

While the matter is serious, I don't believe that it was ever a widespread problem, the few such cases are notorious and scandalous and therefore would be reported widely.

God save us from liturgical abuse!

Michael

We should send a rover there.

I think that poster was me.

I was guesing about throngs of people and I think I called that - a guess.

But all in all daily mass open to the public has always been a pratice of the Roman Catholic church (except under dangerous conditions).

If your experince or logic tells you otherwise. . . it may be so for you and your expereince.

Did you become a Byzantine because you didn't like things in some other church - or did you become a Byzantine because you liked something in the Byzantine church?

In any event - I thank you for the disussion.

-ray

Ray,

You are misreading Mike, focusing on whether daily Mass was readily available. I don't see him as arguing that. He, on the other hand, failed to notice which point you actually missed.

Mike is correct insofar as saying that daily reception of Communion only became a common practice at the beginning of the 20th century.
Pope Saint Pius X was responsible not only for lowering the age at which children were permitted to make their First Communion, but for encouraging what had previously been discouraged, frequent reception of the Eucharist.

Mike,

If you actually know of places where such is common, you have an obligation to bring it to the attention of the local Ordinary. I, for one, find the suggestion that it is very common to be ludicrous.

I'm 57 years old and in 1958 I was regularly serving 11:00am and 12:00 noon Masses at which throngs of hearty souls were receiving Communion.

No, Mike, that's not why I'm a Byzantine Catholic and if it's the reason that you are, you ought to re-examine your thinking.

Many years,

Neil

Posted by Coalesco:

"From my most indifferent and irreligious point in my life to my most fervent and devout I never encountered anyone who stated to me that they had experienced such things, and I would definately been interested to find out!

Of course, those were the days before the internet. I had no notion that such things were going on.

While the matter is serious, I don't believe that it was ever a widespread problem, the few such cases are notorious and scandalous and therefore would be reported widely.

God save us from liturgical abuse!

Michael "

I just wanted to echo the sentiments of those in the Roman Church and say that what abuses there have been or are, they are not the norm. They are not ordinary in my experience nor in the experience of the circle of friends lay, religious, or clerical with whom I am blessed to be in contact on a regular basis.

I would like to reinforce the suggestion that if anyone knows of such incidences of abuse of the Eucharist or any other liturgical abuses, they report them to the Bishop or the Apostolic Delegate.

I'd also like to ask for those reporting such abuses here to point to the places to which we can go to find documentation of such things.

Thanks,

Steve

I'd also like to ask for those reporting such abuses here to point to the places to which we can go to find documentation of such things.

If it is something that is "slipped in" every now and then, I doubt that you would find any documentation on it. If it was an every Sunday thing, it would be a different story.

I don't know about others on the East Coast, but my Bishop is under such pressure/scrutiny (enough already) about the sex scandals, and some other of his actions, that letters go unanswered. Letters to his predecessor went unanswered or answered with a form letter that had no relevance to your original letter. This is my own personal expereince. May-be in other places you can write to your Bishop, may-be you wouldn't even need to.

Here in Birmingham you can call up the Bishop and ask him to dinner. He will eventually get there, it may take a little time, but he will come. So I would think he would answer letter promptly.

This is my experience also. I have heard stories which evidently circulated... but have never meet anyone who actually witnessed something like this. Well.. I guess Mike did.

I meet one Dominican priest (tears ago) who would do such a thing and supposedly he moved to San Francisco - and did.

But - I am aware through some trusted priests that there were some wide spread nonsense in many but not all seminaries during the 60's. I am sure that has all ceased.

�Bad� things have a way of travel. I remember a few years ago when several people told me that a little girl has been found in the local Kmart bathroom - it has been an attempted kidnapping - and the man trying to take her had cut her hair to change her appearance. This story was widespread - as if it happened in 400 KMarts across the US. I suppose it probably happened in some Kmart somewhere but nobody knows for sure. It gained a life of its own.

I would tend to agree - human nature loves a shock. What are these called ? Urban legends? But I do not doubt Mile�s experience which he gave to us as his own and the truth.

-ray

Here in Connecticut letters are about the only thing that get answered. Security is now in place and tight. I guess the offices have been invaded by demonstrators too often. You cannot just walk of the street and see any of the 'management' of the Archdiocese. You can not talk with them directly by phone either. You must deal with a secretary - who will advise you to - write a letter.

If you write them with a complaint you get back a personal letter but it is very defensive.

A sign of the times.