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I only keep bringing it up because you keep doing it, kiddo.

P.S.

As a former Latin-Rite Catholic, I do admit to a certain amount of anger; anger at the liturgical destruction of my former particular church; anger at the wholesale gutting of catechetical instruction during the 60's 70's, 80's and, even up to the present, in many places, where collages and "values clarification" were used in place of sound catechesis; anger at the profoundly horrible neo-modernist formation adopted in many American and other western Latin-Rite seminaries, not to mention the heretical teachings which I encountered in a Latin-Rite Deacon formation program ("Christ didn't know that he was the Messiah until he was dying on the Cross", amongst others), from which, with my Bishop's permission, I withdrew, and found something more orthodox. I have found NONE of these horrors in Eastern Catholicism, and, to this day, rejoice that I am where I am.

Deacon Robert

Example of Eastern Catholics treating western Catholicism unkindly:
I went to my local Ruthenian parish one Sunday (as I often do). I was talking to the mother of a friend of mine after ligtury. She pointed out that I had been to that parish many times and then asked, "Are you thinking about converting to the true faith?"
Further examples of the strange attitudes that many eastern Catholics expresses towards the west:
1. Many eastern Catholics refuse to pray the rosary because it is a western devotion, even though our Lady has asked that all pray the Rosary. I find this strange since many Roman Cathoics are happy to the Jesus Prayer when they find out about it.
2. Denial of the universal jusridiction of the Roman Pontiff because he is a western patriarch.
3. Denial of the dogmatic councils after the seventh because they consider them western councils.
4. Assuming that Roman Catholics are always entirely uneducted when it comes to eastern Christianity.
5. The attitude of some eastern Catholics towards Roman Catholics on this forum.

But I do not see more orthodoxy in the east. Rather I see the denial of many major doctrines such as papal infallibility, purgatory, transubstantiation, the immaculate conception, etc. Of course, just as in the west, it depends on who you talk to.

Example of Eastern Catholics treating western Catholicism unkindly:
I went to my local Ruthenian parish one Sunday (as I often do). I was talking to the mother of a friend of mine after ligtury. She pointed out that I had been to that parish many times and then asked, "Are you thinking about converting to the true faith?"

She may have thought you were a Modernist, because that is rampant in the West, or it may have been said jokingly.

Further examples of the strange attitudes that many eastern Catholics expresses towards the west:
1. Many eastern Catholics refuse to pray the rosary because it is a western devotion, even though our Lady has asked that all pray the Rosary. I find this strange since many Roman Cathoics are happy to the Jesus Prayer when they find out about it.

Eastern Catholics are granted the same indulgences (check out the most recent listing of indulgences issued by, I believe Pope Paul VI) for praying the Akathist to the Mother of God (do you know what that is?), as Latin Catholics are for praying the Rosary. The Rosary is a Western prayer. It is a good thing. Many Ruthenian parishes had the tradition of women chanting the Rosary in Slavonic. But, no law of the Church requires recitation of the Rosary by Eastern catholics.

2. Denial of the universal jusridiction of the Roman Pontiff because he is a western patriarch.

This happens, but it is not a legitimately "Catholic" attitude, and has no place in an Eastern Catholic setting. There are many things in the life of a particular church which are in the "patriarchal realm", and the Pope generally does not interfere, unless there is something aberrational. But, no Eastern Catholic hierarch will deny the Pope's universal jurisdiction.

3. Denial of the dogmatic councils after the seventh because they consider them western councils.

This is aberrational, and is not the norm in Eastern Catholicism. The various re-unions accepted all of the Councils, upon entering re-union. I personally have posted against this, on this board. You would be hard-pressed to find a Greek Catholic bishop taking this position.

4. Assuming that Roman Catholics are always entirely uneducted when it comes to eastern Christianity.

Not always. There are exceptions. But the amount of ignorance is amazing. See my post above.


5. The attitude of some eastern Catholics towards Roman Catholics on this forum. [/QB][/QUOTE]

IMO, the attitudes have been festering precisely because of very poor treatment over the years. Read up on the story of Fr. Alexei Toth and Archbishop John Ireland.

Dn. Robert

But I do not see more orthodoxy in the east. Rather I see the denial of many major doctrines such as papal infallibility, purgatory, transubstantiation, the immaculate conception, etc. Of course, just as in the west, it depends on who you talk to. [/QB][/QUOTE]

In the East, these things are denied, primarily, by Eastern Orthodox (and not all Eastern Orthodox), and are subjects of the theological discussions in ecumenical contacts between Catholics and Orthodox. No Eastern Catholic can deny these things and still be Catholic.

Dn. Robert

In the East, these things are denied, primarily, by Eastern Orthodox (and not all Eastern Orthodox), and are subjects of the theological discussions in ecumenical contacts between Catholics and Orthodox. No Eastern Catholic can deny these things and still be Catholic.

Dn. Robert [/QB][/QUOTE]
I have, unfortunately, run into many eastern Catholics who deny these things because they say they are "Orthodox in communion with Rome". But, again, it may be just who you talk to. The official position of the eastern Catholic Churches is to share the same faith as Rome. I am glad that you are a strong orthodox (lower case "o") eastern Catholic. Praised be Jesus Christ.

IMO, the attitudes have been festering precisely because of very poor treatment over the years. Read up on the story of Fr. Alexei Toth and Archbishop John Ireland.

Dn. Robert [/QB][/QUOTE]
Thank you for you reply. Very helpful and you also appear to be a very orthodox (lower case "o") eastern Catholic. If the majority of eastern Catholics believe as you do, then the east is in great shape. However, I just have seen so many eastern Catholic reject the teachings discussed above because they want to be " [Eastern] Orthodox in communion with Rome". But in the west we have our own problems with heretical Catholics as well I suppose.

Being a Latin myself and a member of this most friendly melting pot of the net I have found it most beneficial to be humble and respectful when visiting...or one may find the welcome mat removed.

The problems within the Western Church did not originate with our Eastern brethern, be they in communion with Rome or not.

james

Amen, James.

LatinCat,

Your desire to defend orthodoxy is noble, but your praxis is toxic to relations between Catholics and Orthodox - not to mention Christian charity.

If you have read Orientale Lumen, and I have no reason to believe that you have not, might I recommend a second or third reading? Even take it to prayer and let its contents move from your mind into your heart. Right now, at least in terms of what I read, I am not sure much has penetrated, whatever you grasped conceptually.

In Christ,

Gordo, who believes, as Father Deacon Jessup does, in the canonicity of all 21 councils, with primacy to the first 7 within our tradition - most especially the first 4 - and still regards himself as "Orthodox in Communion with Rome"

I have read it twice now, thank you. I actually am not concerned one bit about ecumenism. Father Deacon, the east has already come back to the Cahtolic Church and this can be seen in the MANY eastern Churches within the Catholic Church, yours being one of them. The Eastern Christians who have not come back chose to stay away in the face of the return of many others. In a sense it is time to shake the dust from our feet. I am much more concerned about orthodoxy than I am about ecumenism. The Church must remain what it is, the True Church, that Teaches the true faith, and it must not change or water down its teachings for the sake of unity with schismatic groups such as the Eastern Orthodox. I am actually very disturbed by terms such as "sister church" or the two lung theory. It waters down what the Catholic Church has always taught, both east and west, about herslef: that she is the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC Church. I am even more concerned over the fact that Church leaders, even Popes, have used these terms or ideas. I am not an ultra-traditinalist by any means, but we must not hide the faith from the world in order to be nice. As the scriptures state, the church is the "pillar and foundation of truth".

I actually am not concerned one bit about ecumenism.

I am actually very disturbed by terms such as "sister church" or the two lung theory.
Dear LatinCat,

If you truly consider your self as being an " 'orthodox' Roman Catholic in communion with Rome " you will definitely have to re-think these statements.

Bill........who was trying his best, but I guess not hard enough, to avoid this!

Not really. These terms fly in the face of Catholic teaching. There is no need for me to rethink my position on these terms.

LatinCat,

Again, your zeal for tradition and Catholic unity is noteworthy, but overdone and misapplied. Is it really enough that the East has "returned" to the Catholic fold in the presence of Orthodox Christians that make up the Eastern Catholic churches? Are you not concerned about the words of the Gospel on Christian unity and forgiveness spoken by Our Lord Jesus?

Schisms don't just "happen" because of doctrinal differences. Offenses have been committed - historical wrongs have been done by one body to another. Reconciliation is a difficult path, and it does not have to involve compromise, but rather a deeper penetration into the Truth in Charity - embodied in the Person of Jesus Christ.

You treat Christian unity as if it is of no concern to you. I ask - how do you reconcile such a position with the love of God and His Holy Church? Read the documents of Vatican II. Read the writings of the Popes. Are you so presumptuous as to put yourself above councils and recent popes, most especially Pope John Paul the Great?

It is not your zeal that is disconcerting, but your apparent smug satisfaction with your own orthodox position reflected in your writings. Return to your first love and stop offending others.

And recall that you are a guest here.

Gordo

Dear LatinCat,

I understand and even sympathize with your points of view as being the points of view of one coming from a dedicated and committed traditional Roman Catholic background. I commend your adherence to and love for the Roman Catholic Church and Christ in these pagan times which we are living. I also understand, as you have explained it to me, that you love all your brethren in Christ, Orthodox, Protestant and Catholic.

I also see that you have a dilemma and perhaps even a disillusionment with your Popes considering the Orthodox 'sister churches' and the 'other lung of the church'. For what it is worth, there are also fundamentalist Orthodox who reject these ideas. Never the less, I cannot agree with these rejections.

Please understand that this forum is dedicated to not only to Byzantine Catholics, but to all those who love the Eastern rite and its traditions--and that includes Orthodox.

We Orthodox and our Byzantine Catholic brethren belong to essentially the same extended family. The only difference is that some are more closely related to the eldest uncle, the Patriarch of Rome, and others are more closely related to the other uncles, the Patriarchs of the East. It is the fervent hope of many Orthodox that we will all, one day, be a reunited family, with the Pope of Rome in his rightful position of primacy as it was in the first Church. However, since much history has evolved for a millenium since the estrangement of this extended family in Christ, there is much work to be done in the restoration of trust, and of theological and ecclesiastical understanding. In the words of Pope John Paul II, may there be 'purification of memory'.

Infact, clergy representatives of both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Church have just met in Brookline, Mass. for their annual dialogue towards this God pleasing goal of spiritual unity.

I am sorry that ecumenism does not interest you, but in the form of Roman Catholic/Orthodox unity, it is a constant theme and prayer of this particular forum.

As your posts have upset some of our posters and I have received alerts to this effect, I would kindly ask you to refrain from such topics that might compel you to post your disdain for ecumenical dialogue with the Orthodox.

To be fair, the same has been asked of Orthodox posters who have posted here in the past with the same disdain for ecumenism.

Thank you for your understanding and I hope that you will continue to contribute in a conciliar and charitable manner on subjects and matters of our common interest as brethren dedicated to following the same Lord and Saviour.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator