www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Reconciliation with the Orthodox is a two-way street

From Teofilo's Blog: http://www.vivificat.org/2005/06/reconciliation-with-orthodox-is-two.html

Thursday, June 02, 2005

Reconciliation with the Orthodox is a two-way street

Folks, I posted this note on a discussion thread taking place at The Free Republic's Religion forum, and I thought I should repost it here, slightly edited and adapted for Vivificat's readership.

Slava Isusu Christu!
The "Reader David" told me:

If the consciousness of the filioque as heresy was not fixed in Orthodox consciousness (at least within the Patriarchate of Constantinople) prior to the schism--indeed its adoption at Rome being the cause of the schism--you have difficulty explaining the writings of St. Photius the Great on the subject, the fact that the Rome/Constantinople schism dated to 1009 or 1014 with the removal of Rome from the Dipthychs of Constantinople in response, evidently, to the inclusion of the filoque in either the no-longer extant election encyclical of Pope Sergius VI or the still-extant coronation rite for the German Emperor Henry II (Cardinal Humbert's ill-fated embassy had on its agenda not only Patriarch Michael's retaliatory imposition of leaven Eucharistic bread on Latins in Constantinple, but the restoration of the Pope to the Diptychs of Constantinople), and the insistence of the canonist Nikon of the Black Mountain (writing before 1054) that Franks be received by baptism.

I thus replied:

As you already know, there are more than one reading of history on this matter, and I can't through all of them in this forum, without a clear goal. In this case, my goal is to advance the cause of reunification.

Much has been said, suggested, or implied, in or out of context, that I support a willy-nilly reunification by glossing aside the important issues that separate us. I do not believe that, let me make that clear, nor will stand for it.

Nor do I like going around in circles repeating the same again and again, to no avail. The Orthodox claim that they are "the true Church." So do we. The Orthodox claim that history support their viewpoint. So do we. And on and on. So forgive me if I don't follow you on this path. I'll leave that to others with more holiness and knowledge than I. I'll content myself with a short sketch of our fundamental differences that may frame the arena of future discussions, if not between you and me, then between others; if not here, elsewhere.

The Orthodox claim that their theology is the most organic precise, and God-revealing. Funny. We did once, and to a large extent, we still do. Among all the Christian theologies in the world--heck, in the Universe--there's no one with the synthetic drive that has characterized Roman, Latin, Catholic theology. Throughout this process we've always realized the absolute incompleteness of our theological inquiry, not because we lack holy thinkers who wrote their holy thoughts in masterful works, but because as the Spirit lead us to scrutinize the hidden things of God, we've discovered along the way how Big God is and how small we all are. Yet, we plunge ahead still.

In this context, we look upon the Orthodox Church with interest, not because the means of santification and grace available in the Catholic Church are insufficient to achieve the goal the Founder intended for the Church, but because, even in the darkest moments of our relationship with the East, we recognized a fellow pilgrim that could teach us still a couple of things.

Our theology, our mindset, makes us look outward. We have relearned, albeit slowly, the art of looking at you and finding ourselves. Slowly but steadily, we have relearned the ancient truth that we are not enemies, but fellow workers; we have begun to humanize you. We can say that what is ours is yours, and what is yours is ours without fearing to lose our identity and dissolve ourselves in you.

In our nightmares, there is no worse dream than that of the huge monster that devours us. Throughout the centuries, the theme of our relationship has been that we've seen each other as those monsters, monsters that will readily eat us, digest us, and excrete us into shapeless and stinky chunks of nothingness--pardon the gastric analogy.

Orthodox theology, on the other hand, has taken another path. Of course, the Orthodox Church has an impressive theological edifice, built upon the insights of the Greek Fathers. Certainly, the thought of St. Photious and Nikon of the Black Mountain build upon that heritage. Yet they also reveal a certain amount of pride--not that the Latin side didn't have any, but we have come to terms with that--and exclusionary spirit that had already reached the drastic conclusion that the West--the Franks--was nominally Christian and in need of baptism. Byzantium looked inward, rested on her laurels and her position vis-a-vis the West may be summarized as what is yours is yours, what is ours is ours.

This attitude closed Orthodox theology from any other benefic influence, narrowed its universe of discourse, and also helped to close entire civilizations to inquiry and dialogue with other disciplines and other civilizations, to the point that even today, when Orthodox Churches--now we have to speak in the plural--engage the challenges of the modern world, it has to learn its vocabulary and borrow swords and arrows from the Roman Catholic theological quiver to make themselves heard.

From my viewpoint, Orthodox objections to the filioque, papal supremacy, collegiality, and other marginalia--because this is what they are, marginalia--are not insurmountable. Afterall, the Orthodox have agreed with us twice already, which belies their general claim that they are a "conciliar" Church. But that's another subject.

What the Orthodox Church lacks is both the humility and the will to look back upon own history and defects, come to terms with them, and then face the world and face the music. You're still afraid to find yourselves reflected on us and discover that we are not the monsters you believe us to be, and that we can again walk together. The mere thought threatens the core your sense of self-identity.

Once a critical mass of Orthodox and Catholics achieve this humility and will, then the reunion will happen, what you say or object notwithstanding. For whatever is worth, I am willing to cultivate these attitudes. But seriously, are you? I started my intervention in this thread with a variation of that question, and I reluctantly end it with the same question. I don't want to hear words any more, I want deeds.

- Read the entire thread at the Free Republic Religion Forum [freerepublic.com] .

Dear Friend,

As an Eastern Catholic, I find your argument about Orthodox "pride" to be very specious indeed!

The same can apply to Roman Catholic papal triumphalism, surely!

I don't think you've contributed much to the ecumenical dialogue so much as driven another triumphalistic wedge where we don't need one.

Personally, I am much happier to leave these issues to trained ecumenical theologians of both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches - I think you will find that we've advanced beyond the issues you have raised and the way in which you respond to them.

Alex, Internet Carmelite Community of the Byzantine Forum

Please note that, though I posted these comments, I did not write them, and neither am I in full agreement with them.

I do know, however, that the author of these comments attended an Orthodox church for many years prior to returning to Catholicism, so his opinion is not completely without basis or merit.

Actually, I have found that to be the case among most members here, but that there are still those few, moreso on the Orthodox side but also from the Catholic position, that at times employ divisive rhetoric and polemics.

If this thread is inappropriate for this Forum in general, I humbly ask your forgiveness and would request the moderators remove it.

Dear DocBrian,

No need to ask for forgiveness, because you did not offend!

I was responding to the text - sorry if I assumed you wrote it, but that doesn't matter.

Whether the author attended an Orthodox church or not - he or she could still be in error, or could be overdoing this or that point.

I am on very good terms with Orthodox and Roman Catholics - we're just having a discussion after all.

I am just reacting to the blanket notion of "pride" expressed by the author as pertaining to the Orthodox.

But if we believe we have the truth, as the Orthodox Church truly does, then we have no choice but to:

1) State and affirm its contents at all times;

2) Defend it against aberration, either by heresy or schism or imprecision of expression;

3) Witness to it and preach it to the world;

4) Accept no counterfeit on a par with it.

That could be construed as "pride" to be sure. But it is a good pride!

The RC Church attitude to the "truth" is less clear nowadays.

With all the emphasis on the theology of the milk glass with respect to religious truth i.e. "almost full" "mostly full" "somewhat full" etc., is it any wonder Catholics are sometimes filled with a sense of religious indifferentism?

And that is not humility! That is confusion at best and/or accepting other churches and even religions as capable of doing the "same thing that the Catholic Church does" at worst.

Am I right?

Alex, ICCBF

It seems that, in the past, whenever Catholics would take a step forward toward the Othodox, they would take 2 steps back. It seems that whatever we would do as a church, no matter what, it did nothing to end the break.

Not only pride, but rememberence also has played a large part in that seperation. Look, when the late John Paul II visited Greece where he was greeted with jeers, and priests and monks with signs calling him the devil, etc. How can one reconcile with that?

They still remember the 4th Crusade! The Pope asked for their forgiveness. What more can we do??

Mike:
Too many Orthodox believe they are members of the one and only true church and therefore won't associate with the rest of us Christians. Some of us repeatedly extend our hand to them, yet they turn their backs on us and continue living and worshipping as if they were still in the dark ages. They haven't even the slightest undertanding of what ecumenism really means. And, as far as forgiveness goes, their leaders don't forgive, yet they consider themselves Christians. Baloney! [or should I say Kobasa?]

I think that painting the Orthodox Church as anti-ecumenical and and the Catholic Church as always being the one to selflessly ask for unity is truly painting with a broad brush. For centuries, the Catholic Church regarded Orthodox Christians as schismatic and "dissidents". Thanks be to God, the attitudes towards Orthodox before the Vatican Council have been withdrawn (much of that was do to the efforts of John XXIII of blessed memory who knew Orthodox in Bulgaria and Greece) As to the Orthodox attitude, one can mention the reception of the Pope in Greece but one can also look at his reception in Romania and Bulgaria where the attitude towards the Catholic Church is more open. I think both sides need to overcome a "martyr" complex.

Christ is Risen!
Are you trying to bait soemone into arguing harshly, or do you really think that we are a bunch of [profanity deleted]s, in which case you prove the point that Catholics, on the whole, still do not think of us as their equals?

Photius

Photius,
I sometimes worship at the Greek Orthodox church near my hometown when I go home, because there is not a Byzantine Catholic church nearby. They are very welcoming and the priest is so very wise. (He used to be a Catholic monk.)
They also have an annual Greek festival, which is enjoyed very much by the community.
My point is that they do reach out to the community and are friendly. I don't know, however, how ecumenical they are. For example, there is a minister(priest) exchange among downtown churches. I don't think they participate in that. Wolfgang

Very true.

No one can understand that past let alone fix it. No history is objective - no such animal exists. All history is written from the persepective of the one writting the history - that is unavoidable.

To have the past dictate the present is to give the sinners of the past far too much power over us and replacing a living God with someones personal 'god' of percieved history.

-ray

Dear Friends,

With respect to ecumenism, there are RC's as well who don't agree with it, especially with respect to the forms it has taken within their own church that suggests that truth can be negotiated in order to arrive at a corporate reunion etc.

The Orthodox do indeed participate in mutual Christian events and gatherings.

But they hold fast to ancient canons, the creed etc. that they will NOT change for anyone.

There's nothing wrong with that.

And not only the Orthodox, but also EC's have found fault with Rome's attitude towards them.

As a UGCC'er, I always wonder what is up with Rome for refusing to acknowledge the Patriarchate of this Church, a Church of martyrs and confessors - given, as well, all the Roman rhetoric about the EC Churches and the establishment of new Patriarchates etc.

What Roman hypocrisy!

Let Rome get its act together with respect to the EC churches first.

Alex

*nod...*

Interesting statement. Interesting statement indeed...

Some are very sensitive to wording. This casual way of talk is fine among friends - and I have heard Orthodox themselves say this very same thing in even harsher words - but until charity is re-established - you must be aware that the way you put it can call up knee jerk self-defense. You hit a persons knee and it is going to jerk up - it is just the way it is. No one is to fault.

Do not presume that you are entirely among friends and good charity here which makes us all understand each other in intent and meaning. We all lack that family charity at times. I know I do.

In substance - the new Pan-Orthodox Council would agree with you - however they used different wording.

Self criticism is acceptable - but outside criticism - should be carefully done if it is to be accepted. That is just the way we humans are. It can be a strain - but one which we should often take according to charity. Certainly there is wording that will make your knee jerk also ( Photius will find it ).

This is just my opinion. Something to consider. I am not a teacher.

-ray

May we all be pleasantly surprised. See my post on Pan-Orthodoox Council

-ray