www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Understanding of the "Church" thru Byzantine eyes

Hi everybody,

I came across an interesting paragraph in Arch. Joseph Raya's book "The Face of God", which is as follows:

"In the Byzantine spirit, the Church is seen as a reality that transcends immediate expression - it is a mystery of fellowship with God and man. The Romans insist that the Church is a visible society dependant on juridicial rules."

It's a shame he doesn't go any further.

I'd love to have your thoughts expounding upon this passage, especially from any Orthodox readers.

Thanks to all!

Sant

By Archbishop Tawill of blessed memory

http://www.rongolini.com/deacoffc.htm#LITURGY

III THE DIVINE LITURGY: UNION WITH GOD

The whole liturgy leads to communion with the Divine life through the Holy Spirit, which is given to us in a special way in the Eucharist.

The liturgy is the cup of the synthesis (St. Irenaeus) beyond which it is impossible to go (St. Chrysostom).

Since the first Pentecost, says Origen, the Church has been filled with the Trinity.

The Eucharist is the Church entering into the joy of her Master.

The Eucharist is the entrance into the joy of the Master. It is a kind of "fourth dimension," thanks to which we reach a privileged point from which our sight can look down and can foreshadow ultimate reality.

We proclaim the kingdom which we are going to enter.The temple has been destroyed. The only altar which remains is Christ Himself Who has become the place of the eucharistic celebration (antimension). In the Divine Liturgy it is not grace which comes down, but the Church which enters into grace (trisagion).

No opposition between the Liturgy of the Word and that of the Sacrament; the proclamation of the Word is also sacramental; it has the power of transforming (St. Paul).

The Gospel is the Lord's coming (alleluia).

The Kiss of Peace is the revelation of Divine Love, the principle of our love for our brethren.

The Eucharist signifies giving thanks for the signs and proofs of divine love.

"We offer You Your own from what is Your own for the sake of all." Divine love, to which Eucharist testifies and witnesses, is like nuptial love.

Theodoret of Cyrus says: "By consummating the Flesh of the (divine) betrothed and His Blood, we enter into nuptial kinonia (communion). May He unite us in the Communion of one Spirit" (Liturgy).

By the Creed we enter into divine communion (kinona).

Everything I've heard about Archbishop Raya I like, so this is no slight on him, but I think this is an unfair statement.

I am not arguing that "the Romans" do not "insist that the Church is a visible society dependant on juridicial rules," but that's not the complete picture. Certainly, the Church is, in one sense, a visible society, but the Latin Church has always accepted and insisted that the Church is also, even moreso, "a mystery of fellowship with God and man."

Logos Teen

That sounds nice. The Byzantines and Catholics share this view.

Part of it is - no? In the world but not of the world - yes?

With due respect to the Archbishop who has publicly expressed his joy while ordaining Catholic priests, and who has willingly accepted the juridical authority and responsibility of being the Archbishop of Galilee - I am guessing that you have missed something of his context and this one sentence is not as bare as it seems. If it were - then would seem to make him a bit of speaking out of two sides of his mouth. Perhaps betraying a personal struggle.

What is its context in the book?

Do you think he is speaking about - himself? being critical about his own juridical authority as Archbishop?

Human nature is funny. As a past manager - I see someone who uses good human judgment and I promote him to be over others - and many times, for a while at the beginning, some good person that I had promoted would immediately set aside their own personal and good human judgment (which is why I promoted them in the first place) and think that they should become sticklers for the rules - they begin to try and follow and enforce all the rules to what they think is the letter. I guess they are trying to prove that I had made the right choice in them. They are trying very hard to be what they think a good manager is. But they become just the type of manager I didn�t want them to be� and then they complain that the system makes things hard on them and has too many rules. If you get to them before they have a breakdown - you have the chance to convince them to lighten up - you ARE the system - it is as human as YOU make it and as dead as you allow it to be. The rules are dead things that need humans to judge how, when, and if - any rules should be applied and how to apply them - and THAT is why I promoted you in the first place! And it is the ones with the best intentions who usually fall into this - and it is simply because of their intensity of sincerity. We have all been there� felt the pressure of responsibility - that almost crushed us. We applied the pressure - to ourselves.

Could this be what the good Father is going through?

Eternita.. you are a musician and philosopher - a man of the heart as Rays is... doesn�t it seems like you must at times take heroic action (which may even be a compromise of giving up the least ground) to keep the flame alive? That the gods of this world (the system) wage continued war on you to put out your flame? But your would rather die with the embers of your flame than sell out?

It is a funny thing about any book - it tells much more about the author than it does his subject.

I suspect strongly - that Raya's would love to be a monk and dedicate himself to seeking union - than having to split his attention to the drugery of office. It is difficult to know which type of person you are befoore hand.

Have you read anything else by him? He feels deeply.

-ray

Having had personal experience in both Churches, I think the good Archbiship hit the nail on the head. Don

It does seem sad, though, that some people have difficulty extolling the virtues of one Church without putting down another one. Both the East and the West have virtues that complement each other.

Dear Friends,

Well, the fact that the Latin West is much more organized and structured etc. than the East is certainly no slight against it!

This is seen even in church calendars. Western calendars provide all kinds of details about its saints - sometimes even the name of the street on which they were martyred etc. !

I have corresponded with Archbishop Raya and have always loved reading his books.

He has always had a great relationship with RC clergy and people - and he has also had both Latin and Byzantine Carmelites under his omophorion.

I think our Latin friends here doth protest too much.

You can now take the whole matter to a Congregation that will place it under examination by a subcommittee for further observation until such time when a more formal assessment can be made by the competent authorities who wil then . . .

Just love y'a, you Latins, just love y'a!

Alex

If your experiences have been local to Kansas - then you would be surprised at the Catholic experience here in the East coast.

Our Catholic churches are beautiful. Large, ornate, with detailed stained-glass everywhere. You can not travel for 5 miles without running into another one. Most of them were built by Irish and Italian immigrants so there are columns and marble and statutes and candles. Archways and large wood or brass doors. If you walk down the isle when the church is empty - the sound of your footfalls echoes all around and in the soft noise you can barely hear the angels talking. Jesus is present in the bronze box behind the altar and you know his eyes are on you as you walk - alone - towards him - he waits to hear you.

Everyone is reverent and no one chatters during mass. Most times - if some children make too much noise, the priest will stop - for a minute - and that is the sign that the parents should take the children out to the back vestibule. At some churches we still have altar boys and Sunday choirs.

99 out of 100 priests - are very good and friendly and compassionate. You do have a few bozos.

At the end of school - the graduating class comes to noon mass and sit in the front rows. The church is - overflowing - overflowing - the back doors are left open because people are spilling out. The choir is not there that day because the standing space in the choir loft is needed.

Every Saturday there is a line for confession - at least a dozen people always - as new ones come and confessed leave. After confession you quietly go to a pew and sit - say your prayers. Everyone genuflects in the isle when the leave (except after mass when it is too crowded and you would be bumping into other people).

Most Catholic churches have daily Mass - sometimes in the morning or some times at noon. It is coordinated between churches - so you have plenty of opportunity to get to mass once a day. Depending on the size of the church - daily mass will have no fewer than 30 people and in larger churches more - up to 100 at one local church for 8:30am mass. The priest there is from Columbia. Young, handsome, after morning mass he comes out and sits for an hour to silently say his office.

The Catholic priests and the Orthodox priests go golf together. The local Orthodox deacon teaches Patristic in the local Catholic seminar - and this year he will address hundreds of Catholic seminarians from over Connecticut - before their ordination. The Orthodox seminary in New Jersey uses many books that are written by Catholics - and there is no anti-Catholic bias. I think more than one Roman Catholic has volunteered to help whenever the local Orthodox church needed painting or mechanical repairs. I myself have helped paint inside the Russian Orthodox church here and I am friends with so many Orthodox that some even think I am an Orthodox.

The local Greek Orthodox festivals - have police parking the cars on the streets when the parking lots get full. You will meet Russian Orthodox, Catholics, and others at the Greek festivals.

I am telling the truth when I say that the Orthodox complaint up here is not against the Catholics, but mostly regarding church jumping Evangelicals that have become Orthodox and bring their anti-Catholic bias with them. The Orthodox clergy see that as a real problem. Not a big one, but a real one they must deal with.

My mother was from Kansas. My sister was there two years ago.

Oh - I am yaking on and I have to get to work. Bye.

Dear RayK,

I agree - not all RC's are bad!

I've always admired those RC parishes that emphasize the Mass and the Daily Office with attention paid to well-celebrated paraliturgical offices and the Rosary.

I too have mistaken you for being Orthodox . . .

You sometimes go in all sorts of directions, one can't pin you down on much and when I think I have you, you just wiggle your way out by throwing more text at me!

You help paint the Orthodox Church in your area?

What colours do you use, do I dare ask?

Pax Vobiscum!

Alex

Thanks, sweetie! Now ... us Westerners will just shut up and let all y'all Easterners take over!

Dear Dolly,

I'm sorry that our Latin friends sometimes get a rough go of it here.

I don't have that problem because I'm already so Latinized!

Perhaps that is why I was so cantakerous with Cantor Joe yesterday. I'm overly sensitive about being called "RC" - precisely because I won't give up my Latinisms that have grown on me.

So my motto from here on end is "Latinized - and loving it!"

Alex

And mine is, "Sometimes you have to go East to get West!"

(I actually borrowed that one from a writer named Armistead Maupin! )

Dear Dolly,

If we go too far East, we'll eventually wind up in the West anyway!

Alex

Hello, there --

The Archbishop's comments also resonate with me, as a former Catholic who is now Orthodox. Thing is, I don't think he necessarily intended it as the "knock" that some Latin Catholics might take it to be.

If I'm recalling correctly, elsewhere in Archbishop Raya's writings he refers to the Eastern Church and the Western Church as having unique gifts to bring to the life of the Church .... and in terms of "churchiness", this means that the Western Church has this unique gift of order and structure, organization and the like, while the Eastern Church has a unique focus on the Church in a mystical/sacramental manner. Of course, the analysis can't be pushed too far ... there is an understanding in the West that the Church is the mystical Body of Christ, but nevertheless the institutional model of the Church often predominates there, and there is in the East organization, but the Mysical model predominates there. Each side, per Kyr Raya, has become imbalanced due to its divorce from the other. I think that this is true, if we can all be honest with ourselves. As Orthodox we often point our fingers at the Latins as being hyper-organizationally-minded, but can't we at least admit that we have our own organizational deficiencies, to put it mildly? And I would think that many Latin Catholics would also admit that their side of the ledger can sometimes seem overly bureaucratic, at least at times. Something that we each lost as a part of the divorce and hopefully will regain as a part of the process of reconciliation.

Brendan

Dear Brendan,

Even though you are now Orthodox, you are still very Catholic too!

Just for interest's sake, could you provide a breakdown of the years in which you were RC, BC and now Orthodox?

Alex