www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Understanding of the "Church" thru Byzantine eyes

Actually, my experience with the RC Church is quite varied...was a candidate with the OFM's in Washington, DC (Commissariate of the Holy Land), lived in central Indiana a couple of years, had friends in several religious communities, visited Catholic parishes from Santa Fe, NM to Burlington, VT, and from the Canadian border down to Northern Mexico. :-) I've seen a lot. Don

I have stayed in on the East Coast - apparently the Good Lord did me a favor.

-ray

Brendan does not post much - but when he does - I like it.

-ray

While I agree with mostly everything you say Brendan (and I usually do) � I think you should cut us Catholics a break and we all need to come to reality about the human and institutional needs of the Catholic world. It is not thicker on the institutionalized side by - a theological choice.

Figures are from 1996.

Total Orthodox worldwide = 225,000,000
Catholic population in North America alone = 208,276,000
Total Roman Catholics worldwide = 1,050,000,000 (five times the amount)

Orthodox seminaries in the US = 5 ?
Catholic seminaries = just about one in every major city 100+ (?)

Orthodox college and universities in the US = ?
Catholic college and universities in the US = hundreds.

Orthodox lay organizations = ?
Catholic lay organization = hundreds

Religious Orders out in there in the streets serving human needs ?
Varied rites of the Catholic communion = several.

Catholic ecclesia has 5 times the institutional need and load to manage the human body side. We will have to ask Providence why He selected to do things this way.

Current Catholic priest levels are very low (too many years of not screening seminary applicants I think).

Orthodox Liturgy is once a week (yes with Vespers during the week to boot) but Catholic priest have religious activities during the week too. Catholic mass is daily and on Sunday (here in the East Coast anyway) Mass on Sunday is 5 times to accomodate all the people.

On call Catholic priests for the hospitals - Catholic hospitals - parochial schools - etc.. etc� the human institutional necessities of the Catholic church - are - huge and massive. Five times the load of the Orthodox church world wide.

The Catholic and human nature resposibility to this load is outlined in the gospels and handed down from the apostles. It has got to be supported in its human body.

The more I am embrassed into Orthodox circles - the more I find that they are just the same beneath that talk of diffrences. Othodox clergy wish the lay population did not have so much power over them - and Catholic lay people wish the Catholic bishops did not have so much power over them. Six of one and half a dozen of the other - if you ask me. The church millitant is always a church in struggle.

Since the age of 23 I have known about a dozen Catholic mystics in varied stages of the progress toward mystical union. And with Padre Pio, Terresa of Calcutta, Karol Wojtyla, Archbishop Sheen, John of the Cross and hundreds more - when people say that the Catholic church has very little understanding of theosis - all I can do is wonder at that statement.

I enjoyed your post. Please forgive me for using you to let off steam because you certainly do not deserve the steam. I though perhaps you - out of some others - might sympathize with us second class �Latins� and as to why we Rcs here sometimes get spooked by the ethnic label of �Latins�.

I will return to the back of the bus now. Perhaps it is time for me to take a vacation from here - as I let the finger pointing get to me once again.

-ray

Dear Ray K,

For what it is worth, I agree with you 100%.

I think that the sheer size of the Catholic population is enough to back up the fact that it needs to be a very structured organization.

I think that all it takes to see this is logic.
Sometimes passions and emotions supercede logic.

For all the idealism behind the arguments in favor of the loose structure and conciliarity of Orthodoxy, it is, unfortunately not working all that well. A Holy Synod of world wide Orthodoxy has been in the works for thirty years now and there is still no date in sight!

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice:

In all seriousness, how do you believe that it "is not working all that well." The simple fact that no pan-Orthodox meeting of bishops has taken place depiste there being calles for one, I respectuflly submit, does not prove anything.

Yours,

kl

Dear Krylos Leader,

It may be working well enough, but not as well as it could or should.

There isn't as much brotherly love between jurisdictions and within jurisdictions, both here and abroad as there should be. There are also enough schismatic groups not in communion with each other.

Orthodoxy is beautiful, profound, and indeed Holy, (as is Catholicism). There are many holy people, clergy and hierarchs in Orthodoxy, and I love and respect them all. However, we are all sinners, and each lung of His Most Precious Body, His Church, is therefore, comprised of sinners, so I judge not, but, have formed a fairly educated opinion, (I believe), of the situation of local and world Orthodoxy. Let's leave it at that.

However, I do stick to my opinion, and it is just that-- an 'opinion'...take it or leave it, for what it is worth.

Again, sorry if I have offended you with it.

In Christ, Our Lord and Saviour,
Alice

The key phenomenon is the word: "ekklesia", ie, "church" or better: "community". But the root lies in the proto-root: ek- kalesis, i.e., those called.

The community consists of those whom the Lord has called to come together. It's a bunch of folks who have been baptized and who, in love and praxis, meet to form the community.

The Latin community seems to carry the charism of organization and structure. Byzantines, though descendents of an imperial structure, seem to have very fluid demarcations in the vast majority of structures. We can tell you what the boundaries are, but..... well.... you know...... and so the lines are really flexible. This drives the legal folks nuts.

Archbishop Raya, in dealing with the Melkite community (consisting of all sorts of ethnic folks from the Near East) had to be as flexible as the people. And clearly, he did so as evidenced by the love and great respect that came his way from his people. Trying to explain this to the Romaniak bureaucracy was probably a major cross in his life!! Among the ethnics, sometimes the ecclesiastical jurisdiction was little more than a type of fashion statement. And if "your priest" wasn't available, then you went to the one who was there. And nobody really cared. (How incredibly Christian of us!!!) But it presents a real problem to some Western as well as Eastern folks who like the lines drawn clearly. Sorry, many of us just don't do this. The idea is: "go where you belong".

As an example, the President of the local Greek Orthodox Church ladies' society (philoptochos - for those in the know!) met me at the picnic (ooops, we all say "festival" now); she found out I was half-Greek (Arkadia) and went to the Ruthenian (aka:=Slovak) church here. I got a punch in the arm (with a smile), being told: you should be coming HERE!! (The Blessed Administrator was my witness. And she almost went after him too!!) But again, it's: "go where you belong".

The logical question is: where do the "outsiders" go? And this presents a problem. The Ruthenian church in the U.S. has made a conscious effort to do English and to accommodate non-Carpatho folks. But still, in a number of places, if you aren't Pod-Karpatskoye Oblast, or Ukra-ine, or Lemko, then you're ecclesio-compost. [Greeks make it in by indult - Mother-Church, you know.]

But if you aren't "nash" or somehow part of the "flock", then you have to come in by the side door and you have to do your time in the community to demonstrate the fact that you really, really, really, REALLY want to be a part of the Church. (picnic work, christmas tree sales, parking lot re-paving, church cleaning, etc.) And a year's worth of work? Oh, please. Five years' work? You're getting close. Ten years work? OK. Now you're talking. our whole concept is WAAAAAY different from the parish-hopping ability of the Westerns. Some wags have even used the analogy of engagement and marriage. And, though I hate to admit it, I think they're right. It takes time, and judgement on the part of the parish community to see if you're OK or not.

So, if a non-native Christian comes to us, and worships Sunday-ly for a year, but is not involved elsewise, then they may think they're part of the parish. Wrong. They're still guests.

One has to convince the membership of the parish church that one has truly come to 'belong'. And, for better or for worse, this judgement is oftentimes made by the babas or yiayias, or the "men's group". (And the priest thought he was in charge!! Dream on.)

And so, we cycle back to: ekklesia, the "ones who are called". One's salvation is linked to one's 'koinotis', or 'community'. Unlike Bally's Gym, where the membership card allows one to exercise anywhere one wishes, our Eastern Church membership card allows one to worship at one's own parish community, but with 'guest privileges' in other Eastern (Orthodox/Catholic) facilities, with the approbation of the sacerdotal General Manager. But these "guest privileges" are generally restricted to those "with the name", i.e., the ethnic connection that allows a crossing over from jurisdiction to jurisdiction without U.N. approval or involvement. If one can't demonstrate the ethnic connection, then this privilege is not available. E.g., if your name is O'Reilly, then don't think that just because you're Byzantine, an OCA or Greek priest will just let you come on in. If you can talk the talk of "where" and "when", then maybe you'll get the hall pass. But then again, may be not.

I know that many of our RC brethren rejoice in their ability to "affiliate" with the Eastern Communities in communion with the Holy Father. And this is all well and good. But, our brethren must absolutely realize that "our affiliated Church" has a whole lot of linkages with our Orthodox brethren through blood, history and persecution by the Powers of Darkness. And just because you're Roman and "affiliated" doesn't mean you "belong" to the Eastern Church and that the Orthodox community will do cartwheels at your presence. They won't. And most of our Eastern Catholic folks won't either.

But once the Westerner has proved him/herself, then it's a totally different story.

Sorry to be so long-winded and perhaps blunt, but after 5 decades of dealing with this on a really personal level, I hope that I have a decent perspective on how things operate.

Blessings!!!

Dr.John-

In my own personal experience, the situation you describe was much more prevalent in the Eastern Catholic Church, as opposed to the Orthodox Church.

I was once grilled as to my ethnic background by the cantor at the Byzantine Catholic church I USED to attend. When I answered that I was an Irishman, I was not greeted by a, "welcome!" or "glad you joined us today!" No. I was asked why I was there. Sorry, but that is not a good way to reach out to your fellow Catholic or the community at large. I didn't return. I attended a couple other Eastern churches where I was simply ignored. And believe me, these were parishes that a newbie would stand out in, due to the overall size of the community.

On the flipside, I was welcomed with open arms at the Orthodox church I attended for almost a year. I was never once given the "nash" test. Every Sunday I was welcomed with a smile, handshake and an invitation to coffee hour after Liturgy. I finally left due to my decision to remain Catholic; but the warmth and hospitality I experienced made my decision all the more difficult.

I hear Byzantines complain that their Church is in danger of disappearing, or that there are a lack of vocations and parishes are closing. As an "outsider" that spent almost two years exploring the "East", I wonder if this ethnic, ghetto mentality that you seem to embrace isn't contributing to the larger problems your community is experiencing.

I do agree with you that you should embrace all that your adopted community has to offer: ethnic festivals, church cleaning etc. It is important to become and active member of the community overall, not just showing up to Liturgy on Sunday. Not only do the regular parishoners expect it, but it is spiritually satisfying to the outside individual to be an active member. It is a great way to fellowship with your fellow believers.

Just some thoughts from an non-"nash", Western outsider. I guess I will never understand why it is so important to some Easterners that you are the "right" ethnicity. At the end of the day, we are all sinners struggling against the spiritual enemy of our souls, struggling to work out our Salvation. I doubt my surname origin will come up as a topic of debate at the great and terrible judgement seat.

Columcille

Dear Dr. John,

Half 'Arcadian'....

My maternal grandfather was Arcadian.

So that's where you get your fighting spirit!

(for those not in the know, the revolutionaries that liberated Greece fom the Ottoman occupation, (and are as greatly honored as George Washington is in the U.S.) were from the area known as Arcadia...and a wild bunch they were...that Kolokotronis and Nikitaras...

Fondly in Christ,
Alice

P.S. I agree that it is important to be where you feel most comfortable in following Christ. Don't let those Philoptochos ladies perturb you...they and others sometimes forget that you belong to a church to worship Christ first and foremost, and that ethnicity should always be secondary.

Dear Columcille:

Allow me to echo your positive experiences in Orthodox parishes. When I was a student in Philadelphia, I lived close to the Greek Orthodox parish church in Center City. Not being crazy about going to the Ukie Cathederal in Philly, I went to the GO's. On Sunday when the church was full, I was left alone.

But on Wednesday evenings during the Great Fast, I was asked to come and chant the Presanctified and was invited to a "breaking of the daily fast" meal afterward. No one ever asked about my ethnicity or whether I was big-o Orthodox. (I guess they just saw that I crossed myself like they did and figured I knew what I was doing there).

Yours,

kl

Dear Alice:

If I gave the impression that I was "offended" by what you said, please forgive me. This was not my intent. I just wanted to better udnerstand your position.

In your last post, you raise two new arguments in support of a more rigid (if I can use that term) church structure for Orthodoxy.

First, you say that there are uncannonical schismatic groups. In response, I respectfully submit that there are uncannonical and schismatic groups in the West as well. Ever hear of the Western Orthodox Church, Pope Pius XIII or, dare I say, Protestants?

Furthermore, what of these "uncannonical" Orthodox churches? Perhaps they have very good reasons for doing what they are doing.

For example, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyivan Patriarchate is a Church that is devoted to its faith and its nation but does not wish to be subject to the jurisidiction of the imperialist Muscovites. Patriarch Filaret of the UOC-KP was willing to meet with the Pope when His Holiness visited Ukraine, while the MP's were not.

And, finally, who decides who is "cannonical" and who is not. It seems to me that it is whatever Constantinople decides it is.

Your other argument concerns the lack of love and respect between the jurisdictions. True enough. Still, I'm not sure it's any less so in the big-c Catholic Church, where the predominant Latin Rite (despite the lip service) still looks down its proverbial nose at the other sui juris Churches in communion with the Roman Pope. As for us "Eastern Catholics," just note the amount of Rome- and Latin-bashing that goes on around here.

Once again, I mean no disrespect, nor do I mean to imply having taken offense at your position. What I say is merely in the spirit of intellectual discussion and exhange of ideas.

Yours,

kl

I too, who remain a Catholic - was very warmly welcomed in the local Byzantine and in the local Russian Orthodox. I have my own 'seat' in the ROC pews.

While I consider this bulletinn board very mild for anti-Catholic bias - here wher4e I live in the East Coast - there is none at all. Neither from the Greek Orthodox (my wife's side) nor the Russian. I expereince nothing of that at all and they do not call use the negative and ethnic slur of "Latins" (that old term left over from the days of schism) they call us Roman Cathiolic like everybody else does snd we call ourcelves.


-ray

Of course I am - right.

I was wrong - once.

I think it was in December of 1967 on a Thursday at 1pm. But what I was wrong about was - that I had thought that I was been wrong on something but as it turned out I had really be right.

I will never forget that day.



OK.. I am going to take vacation from this borad, and the defense of the whole Catholic world now rests in your hands Alice. Take names so I can give a full report to the Pope's Gestapo when I return.



See ya all when I return.

-ray