www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Give Roman Catholics the Eastern Option?

Dear Ray,

Thanks for that dear comment. It means a lot to an overworked Mom today.

God Bless You,

Tammy

I experience this too Ron.

Experiencing the Eastern roots and heritage of the Roman Catholic Mass, by attending Eastern Liturgy, has served to deepen my own experience of my own Roman Catholic Mass. Things about it - are given a perspective and the roots are plain. The universality of the Church is clear. I am in awe of Jesus Christ - who is the master of all these rites and churches which comprise his One Church. I feel sorry for individual members (including bishops) who foster the human division - against His will. May God have mercy on them for ripping apart what is so dear to his heart as to die for. They can not tear it except in their own minds and in anyone they can convince.

-ray

RayK, just to clarify, it was me who originally said what you attributed to Ron Montecalvo above - he was just quoting me.

And Ron, I'm sorry but I really can't agree with you that the Roman Church Mass is very little different from the Episcopal and Luthern Tradition.

The "Roman Church Mass" as you put it, may SEEM similar to the Masses of some "high church" Protestants, but in one very crucial and substantial way, it is completely different -- because, like every other legitimate, approved, valid rite of the Catholic Church, it brings us the REAL PRESENCE - the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity - of Jesus Christ Himself.

Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, but there's nothing like the original.

Tammy,

you are certainly correct Churches do not (or should not) proselyte, "steal sheep", or try to "convert" another's members. However the various Churches will accept someone who decides on their own that he/she/they want to formally change their respective canonical enrollment to another Church. As practiced in our parish, once the requirements have been met, and the respective bishops agree to the canonical change, the decree is read before dismissal of a Sunday Divine Liturgy and the documents are signed on the tertapod in the midst of the faithful. This at least allows others to be aware that the change in canonical enrollment is available if desired.

No one puts the hard press on those who are RC and attending our parishes, but our mission Eparchy of Van Nuys was so blessed to receive quite a number of new members by the change in canonical enrollment that the judicial vicar reported that the papal nuncio, Archbishop Gabriel Montalvo, remarked on how our Church is growing.

That is certainly warm and heartening news! It should be viewed as finding one's spiritual home rather than a stealing of sheep. When we feel at home where we are, we are better and more faithful sheep. Thanks for your kind information.

Tammy

Tammy,

While in principle I have no problem with pastors letting Latins move freely over to one of the Eastern Churches in an official capacity (since nothing is stopping them at this point from going over to their local EC parish and receiving Holy Communion and Confession otherwise), I think such a desire is not always a sign of a good situation.

By this I mean, many people do want to go "Eastern Catholic" for positive reasons - they feel an affinity for "Eastern spirituality" (though that can be many things, admittedly), Byzantine praxis, etc.

However, I think sometimes this move is motivated by the very unhealty situation many RC parishes now find themselves in - a situation created by the incredible imprudence, and neglect of the Latin episcopate, and a few real (imho) heretics who use this neglect as licence, to introduce every sort of novelty and frivolity into the life of the parishes.

This has created a situation where dubious catechesis reigns supreme, and the sacred liturgy has been totally disconnected from the ecclesiastical customs of the Latin Church, creating an ever changing, ever evolving "spirit of Vatican II" atmosphere. When people suffering in such places go to an Eastern Catholic Church, it's often a breath of fresh air - for the older folks, a semblence of what they remember from their youth when the Tridentine Missal reigned supreme in the west...for the younger people, a reverence and wholeness which gives meaning and expression to their faith.

This is not to say that I think laymen should be stopped from going over to one of the Eastern Churches because they are fed up with what is going on in their Latin parish - they have a right (imho) to protect their hearts and their sanity from the negligence and insanity of others. However, it is a symptom of a really bad situation, that I think many "conservative", uber pro-John Paul II Latins still have their heads in the sand (ostrich like) over. All is not well at home.

Let us consider something for a moment. Let's say you could go to any Latin parish in your area, and find the following...

- A Temple itself in accord with the customs of the Latin Church; basically cruciform in design, with a centrally placed High Altar, a sanctuary with altar rail in tact; and a profusion of states and other sacred images, denoting that this is not a House given to neo-iconoclasm, or images of subtly heterodox import (or as is often the case in modern Latin parishes, just outright tacky and lacking in good taste.)

- A Church where the sanctuary is treated as a sacred space, and not a place to make whatever social or political statement you may have welling up within you.

- A Church where the "Extraordinary Ministers of Communion" really are extraordinary; no spectacle of a Priest with maybe twenty people present at a morning Mass parking his butt on a chair while his "Extraordinary minister" proceeds to give out Communion.

- Good translations of the official text of the Roman Missal be created; so far, that has not happened, and some of the liberties taken by the common English "translations" are outrageous, and even smack of a subtle humanism.

- A healthy consideration that there is nothing in Vatican II mandating the insanity which passes itself off as "Catholic worship" in our times; whether it be celebrating the Mass "facing the people" (in contradiction to the ancient custom of not only the Latin Church, but also that of our Eastern Catholic brethren who continue to "pray toward God"), or other examples of liturgical experimentation which have caused incredible disorientation amongst the laity and even the clergy themselves.

- In short, the ideal situation would be one where the Church and the service basically looked and felt the same as a pre-Vatican II "Tridentine" Mass, except it may or may not be (totally or in part) in vernacular, with a little bit more active participation on the part of the congregation, and optional Eucharistic Prayers.

If these situations were remedied, it would be for the good of all - I'd also have to question if there would be AS MUCH of a movement of people going from the Latin to Eastern Catholic Churches if this better situation existed.

Augustine

Augustine,

A very good explanation & remedy, however it will take about the same time or more to fix it as it did to get what we have today.

I will continue prayers for the Church of my baptism........

james

Dear Augustine,

I have read about the type of worshipper who goes searching for the traditional Mass and ends up in the unlikely place of an Eastern Catholic church. This type has been mentioned here on the forum often. I have also understood that frequently, they don't stick around very long, for the simple reason that they are looking for the experience you just described, and an Eastern Church feels different to them. Perhaps more often than not, they start pleading for Holy Rosary before Divine Liturgy, or western looking statues, and the like. They certainly can't understand married priests.

I am describing a situation in which a person is truly open-minded to the Eastern rites, has perhaps read books introducing him/her to the luminous spirituality present there, and shows a serious interest in the East for its own sake. I wouldn't bother inviting a RC such as you described. I agree with you, the Eastern Church is not what he is looking for.

Most of my extended family are traditional Roman Catholics, and as far as I know, none of them have shown any interest in the East. Nor have I invited any of them, outside my own husband and children. But they do know that I divide my worship practices between the two.

In Christ and the Theotokos,

Tammy

My experience with Tridentine Catholics has not been good. Most of the ones that have shown up at Eastern Liturgies are not only ignorant of the the East, but equally ignorant of the West. They seem to think that Catholicism started with Trent and that Trent reflected liturgical practices going back to the apostles. They had no desire to be Eastern, but wanted to escape current practices in the Latin Church. These are the ones who showed up with sour faces and rosaries swinging, clamoring for us to be more like the idealized Church they were longing for. And you know, the more I have thought about it, those folks were actually more Calvinist in attitude than Catholic. However, the Catholics who have walked in our doors and felt as if they had finally found their spiritual home have made fantastic Byzantines. To those I say, "come on in - what took you so long? We have been waiting for you."

AMEN!

Amen Amen Amen! The Tridentine Mass at my parish is not well attended and may be terminated by our Bishop. Some of the "Tradlats" there have started their fit of Pope-Bashing again and one in particular has said "Oh, well, there's always the Eastern Rite," which, in his opinion, is "just a placeholder until the Orthodox return to communion with us." *cringe* I put up with a lot of "The Mass of the Council of Trent is the Mass of the Apostles!" nonsense and it's starting to drive me crazy. Equally insane is the fact that they're willing to bash Protestants and the Orthodox using "Extra Ecclesia Nullas Salus!" as their mantra and then they run off and join schismatic or sedevacantist groups. *sigh*

Amen!

Well, I've said this before in different ways and I think it bears repeating now. The Eastern churches, both Orthodox and Catholic have a tremendous gift to give this modern culture of ours.

Eastern spirituality works. It makes sense and is easy to explain to even the most hardened sceptic, I really believe this.

Although I derive from the Latin rite I don't think it particularly healthy for Eastern Churches to be a refuge for discouraged Latins. Sure we should educate them, it might help their situation eventually, it sure couldn't hurt. I feel their pain, but they need to seek the East on it's own merits, not because they are discontented with what they are dealing with.

Our target, our goal, our mission is to convert the culture. I think as many as half of the official count of the Roman Catholic church membership may be non-practicing. A similarly shocking figure might be true of the Orthodox and it could potentially be a lot worse for some Eastern Catholic jurisdictions. As sad as that is it is just symptomatic of the general trend of the culture down the soil pipe.

First the lukewarm faithful skip liturgy occasionally or only show up on holidays, then they become non-practicing. Eventually the kids or grandkids are unchurched relativists and will not be counted in any church register because they will not even get a baptism. Some of the relatives become hardened agnostics and athiests, sometimes after an unpleasant scene when the non-practicing parents are refused a Christian funeral. The people are slipping away, I know a lot of people just like this.

But if we add up the totals for these churches in the USA (60 - 65 million Catholics, 6 million Orthodox) and assume most of them are properly catechised and faithfilled, one would still come to the astounding realization that fully 160+ million residents of the USA are either Protestants, non-Christian adherants or unchurched.

That is where our attention should lie, that is where our efforts should be placed. That is where the new members should come from. If anyone else wants to come along, great!

In Christ,
Michael

This is my first time posting at this forum. I was so excited to find it as I was surfing the net one day.

First, I have to say I am so impressed with the knowledge that many of you here possess--that alone makes this place a real gem of a site.

My husband is Byzantine rite and I am RC, but we both have been attending RC churches. After my husband's parents both died while he was very young, it seems the rest of the family didn't participate in any form of religion, so he is unfortunately not familiar with the beauitful Divine Liturgy.

Many years ago, I did go to DL at St Michael's Byzantine Church in Perth Amboy, NJ. I fell in love with the liturgy and found it most beautiful. The pastor there was Fr Basil Rakaczky, whom I believe is still there, and he was just wonderful. (I wonder if anyone here knows Fr Basil, and how he's been doing)

Since then, though, I went back to my RC ways and tried (in vain, it seems) to find a parish where we could feel at home. Still haven't found it. So my husband and I are thinking of attending a local Byzantine rite chapel in our area. Infact, we wanted to go DL tomorrow. As I said, I love the DL, and I think my husband should find his roots and discover the beauty of the liturgy as well.

I searched through this site as best I could, but didn't really see anything that would address our questions/concerns (other than the crossing of the arms upon receiving communion that someone mentioned.)

I should mention that I never went to receive communion during the times I went to St Michael's. Hence, here are my questions:

1. I heard that one is supposed to tell the priest one's name before receiving communion in the Byzantine rite, is that always true?

2. What will the priest say to the communicant and is a response expected?

3. Am I supposed to say anything after receiving (as in the RC rite, we say AMEN and cross ourselves usually).

Please, could someone help me before tomorrow so we can fully participate in the DL?

Thanks!!!!

Carmen

Hi Carmen and welcome

Q 1 - well I have Receieved in 4 Different UGCC Churches now - and my name has only been used in 1

Q 2 - words of Administration do seem to vary - only once to me in English normally where I go in Ukie - so I really cannot translate - sorry BUT the important thing is no response should be made

Q3 - again - say nothing , and do not bow or Cross yourself.

Remember that when you Receive Communion , it is from a Gold Spoon - so please do not close your mouth on it - and you should not bow as the most Precious Body and Blood of Christ in in you at that time - no little accidents are wanted.

No doubt there will be someone else along soon who will give you far better and much more informative answers than mine [ I'm RC ]

My recommendation - relax and enjoy it and come and tell us how you got one

Thank you so much for the quick response!

I knew about the manner of receiving with the spoon. I didn't know about the non-response part, so that was very helpful.

I'm very much looking forward to fully participating in the Liturgy!

Carmen