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Mar 25th, 2025
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 93
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I don't agree that a 1500 year old liturgical tradition has been overturned | Then we simply disagree. Please note that I am an Orthodox Christian and therefore don't strictly speaking have a dog in this fight. I do however believe there is more than substantial evidence that a liturgical revolution occurred in the Roman Rite during the past 45 years. These changes, as I understand them, affected not only the Mass but also all the rites of sacramental administration and were even more widesweeping than the proposed new translations of the Byzantine Liturgy cuurrently being discussed on this board.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678 Likes: 1
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Pavel,
Are you speaking to me or to LatinCat? If it's me, I'll respond when you say so.
I do think we should note that the Novus Ordo/Missal of Paul VI is not a production of Vatican II, but came into formation years afterward.
Logos Teen
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Joined: Jul 2003
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Teen ... tut tut ... read the last para of my post. I dont think that applies to you.
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Joined: Jul 2003
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"The whole arguement that the Pauline Use is an obstacle to Ecumenism is without foundation. I have yet to see any Orthodox propose this at any official dialogue. Papal Infallibility and Universal Jurisdiction are the obstacles to Ecumenism with the Orthodox. Everything Tridentists put out decries the modern ecumenical movement but they are worried the Pauline Use will upset the Orthodox? I don't buy it."
Quote from Fr Deacon Lance
I could not agree more with this sentiment.
Pavel
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Joined: May 2006
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Dear Bill, Thank you so much for this article, it really says it all. Blessings to you.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 704
Bill from Pgh Member
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Bill from Pgh Member
Joined: Jun 2006
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Dear Highlander,
Please don't thank me. Thank TCR and Stephen Hand.
When our late Holy Father John Paul II stated that the internet can and should be used for evangelization, I think this is what he had in mind.
TCR is what authentic "Traditional" Roman Catholicism is all about.
Please take the time to familiarize yourself with the website and what it has to offer.
In Christ,
Bill
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Bill from Pgh Member
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Bill from Pgh Member
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Originally posted by rcguest:
When our late Holy Father John Paul II stated that the internet can and should be used for evangelization, I think this is what he had in mind. To Highlander and All, byzcath.org fits the bill, too!  Upon revisiting this thread and reading my post above, I needed to add this disclaimer because that post seems a little smug to me. I also must add that I don't always agree with the political views expressed at TCR, but I believe the theology to be well rooted in Catholic tradition. Nevertheless, it all gives one something to think about. In Christ, Bill
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Should She deem it necessary or good, the Church could reduce Her liturgy to these words and acts, the "substance" around which all the ritual "accidents," which change through time, adhere. It is the Who of the Mass which must rivet our attention, our love and adoration, if we are spiritually in balance, more than the accidents which sometimes appeal more in one form to some and in other forms to others An interesting article but also typical of the rationalism and now modernism that prevails in the West and which is exemplified by the quote above.
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Bill from Pgh Member
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Bill from Pgh Member
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Dear Mark,
"Should she deem it necessary or good"
"Should she" is the important part of this statement. Changing the liturgy does not change the deposit of faith and I don't believe the Holy Spirit revoked the magesterial authority of the church in the eigth century. If this is rationalism and/or modernism I stand guilty.
In Christ,
Bill
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Joined: May 2006
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Dear Mark, Modernism has nothing to do with it. This has always been the Catholic view of Tradition. Here's some more from the same website: http://tcrnews2.com/integrismupdate.html Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 892. on the Ordinary Magisterium:
"...in the Catholic Church the principle of "tradition" refers, not only and not even in the first place, to the permanency of ancient doctrines or texts which have been handed down, but to a certain way of co-ordinating the living word of the Church and the decisive written word of scripture."
And Benedict XVI:
..."tradition" means above all, that the Church, living in the form of the apostolic succession with the Petrine office at its center, is the place in which the Bible is lived and interpreted in a way that binds. This interpretation forms a historical continuity, settng fixed standards but never reaching a final point at which it belongs only to the past. "Revelation" is closed but interpretation which binds is not. There can be no appeal against the ultimate binding force of interpretation. So tradition is essentially marked by the "living voice" --i.e. by the obligatory nature of the universal Church." ( ----Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Church, Ecumenism & Politics, Crossroad NY, pp. 79-80, 1988)
Tradition is not petrified wood ----texts which judge the living magisterium. It is the living magisterium which judges what is Tradition and what is not, what is only "accidental" as the scholastics referred to it. That doesn't mean that you have to accept that definition of "Tradition", of course, just that it is not a modernist invention. Blessings with you.
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Joined: Nov 2001
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Dear Friends,
What is the "official" view of world Orthodoxy concerning the Novus Ordo?
Is there one?
Alex
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Joined: Apr 2005
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I don't think there is any official statment regarding the rubrics of the NO vs. TLM. The real issue I believe is in the example pointed out by Fr. Deacon Robert. Even then, I think the Novus Ordo is simply a shorthand way of saying "lots of wacky stuff going on". It's not about the rubrics really.
The other point that is salient is that I think this is more of an issue of ecumenism at the lay and not the official level. IMO, this is equally as critical though.
Andrew
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Joined: Oct 2002
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If the current Papa says its organic nature is questionable and needs to be reviewed within the context of tradition and V II...and I was also reminded by a Julian calendar friend " by its fruits it will be known "... Is it a obstacle...maybe as it is practiced today, but then again I can't read minds...if I could I would be very rich returning from my monthly visits to Vegas  james
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Joined: Dec 2005
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I began attending the Byzantine DL in Alaska, and at first did so more as a reaction against what I saw as the rampant modernism in the Anchorage RC archdiocese. However, as I learned more of Byzantine Catholicism - and Orthodoxy - I came to love the theology and interpretations of tradition in the East.
Since moving back down South - BOO! HOO! - I've had the opportunity to attend the TLM at an FSSP parish. I've now found that, while the TLM is lovely and reverent, I'm more at home worshiping God in the DL.
As far as the NO Missae, NO THANKS!! I found even the most reverently celebrated NO Mass to be a "McDonald-ized" liturgy. That is, dumbed-down and overly focused on the profane at the expense of the sacred. Too often a celebration of the people who are supposed to be worshipping God rather than a re-presentation of the Eternal Sacrifice of Christ and thanksgiving to God for this Sacrifice.
NEMO
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