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From the Catholic Catechism: The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268 The Catholic Church teaches that she ALONE is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. Please note: "whose power derives from the FULLNESS of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the CATHOLIC CHURCH." From djs: Of course, your authority to declare what the Catholic Church teaches is nil. Moreover, as evidenced by your equating "subsists within" with "is" any claim to grasp of nuanced meaning of the items that you quote is dubious. BTW, for those who don't know what "subsists" means, here is a definition from Dictionary.com: sub�sist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sb-sst)
v. sub�sist�ed, sub�sist�ing, sub�sists
v. intr.
To exist; be.
To remain or continue in existence.
To maintain life; live: subsisted on one meal a day.
To be logically conceivable. I hope this puts an end to some people's ideas as to what the Catholic Church teaches on this matter. Greg
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Dear Greg, my brother in Christ AND Holy Orthodoxy, In a way, I often wonder what difference it makes...  'The Catholic church says she is the one Holy, Catholic and Apostilic Church', or 'The Orthodox church says she is the one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church'... Both are part of a whole that was estranged and divided, whether one, or both sides, want to accept that or not. There is as much validity in being under the 'first among equals' of the apostles, as there is being under 'the other successors of the apostles'... I see the whole church, Catholic and Orthodox, as being part of a family, just like my extended family, where culturally, I was brought up Greek Orthodox, and my cousins were brought up totally WASP...yet we were still cousins, our mothers were still sisters, and we shared the same grandparents. Our cultural differences, likes, dislikes, second language (I speak Greek, they do not), perspectives, practices, and outlooks did not change that. Just some rambling thoughts for a cloudy Tuesday morning!  In Christ our Lord and Saviour, Alice
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Dear Alice --
The Church is not divided. Both sides are not part of one whole.
If that were true, then ALL Christian groups could claim to be part (visibly) of the Church. A very protestant idea.
Greg
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P.S. I have this little personal, silent prayer I add after reciting, 'In one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church' in the Nicene Creed...I silently insert, 'may she be reunited, God'! I hope that I am not labeled a heretic for changing the Creed, albeit in my heart and mind! 
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Dear Greg, Remember that stuff I said about paradigms? Yes? Well, it applies here! As I see it (and I could be a heretic - people have seen heretical tendencies in me before on this forum  ), the Catholic Church in communion with Rome sees itself as having the "fullness" of truth. In other words, what it believes is a kind of "standard" for all other churches and Christians. One may come closer to that standard or else move further away from it. In the case of the Orthodox Churches, the Catholic Church sees it as: 1) a means of sure salvation as it possesses true Apostolic Succession, valid Sacraments/Mysteries, true Bishops and the Apostolic Faith. 2) almost completely in doctrinal union with the Catholic Church save for, the Catholic Church, the main issue of separation ie. communion with Rome. 3) a true Church, although separated from Rome, and truly part of the Mystical Body of Christ - although not in communion with the Pope. In other words, and owing to the issue of doctrinal development (which the Orthodox Church denies,as per Fr. Michael Pomazansky and others), the Catholic Church does indeed see the means of a fully graced Christian life outside itself. The Orthodox Church does NOT have anything similar in its ecclesiology. Outside the Orthodox Church, one has no way of knowing how God comes to people etc. For me, the doctrine of the Catholic Church in communion with Rome is rather a brilliant way of uniting the "one true Church of Christ" with the truth that there is grace in other Catholics (ie. the Orthodox) and other Christians who have that grace on the basis of what they share in common from the common spiritual patrimony of the Church of Christ founded on the episcopate (ie. St Peter) that has historically been embodied in the bishops of the world with the See of Rome as first throughout the Catholic Church. I find the current Orthodox ecclesiology wanting in this respect. But in order to give a full and comprehensive picture of what the Catholic Church believes in this respect, listing a few quotes won't do it. Again, I understand your perspective in so doing - but remember that we Catholics have the "development of doctrine" which you Orthodox do not. And I wouldn't myself presume to wish to summarize Orthodox ecclesiology on the basis of a few quotes - I think your theologians would have a thing or two to say about your methodology here! God bless you, but please don't impose the strictures of Orthodox perspectives on us Cath'lics! Alex
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Dear Alice, Your positions lead you to the brink of heresy from an Orthodox point of view. Keep up the good work . . . Alex
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Gregory,
I'm not sure what your point is and why you seem to be picking on djs. Dominus Iesus explains:
The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity � rooted in the apostolic succession � between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: �This is the single Church of Christ... which our Saviour, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care (cf. Jn 21:17), commissioning him and the other Apostles to extend and rule her (cf. Mt 28:18ff.), erected for all ages as �the pillar and mainstay of the truth' (1 Tim 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him�. With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that �outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth�, that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church. But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that �they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church�.
Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.
The Catholic Church believes she has the fullness of the faith. Yet she also believes that "the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these [other] Churches." You are emphasizing one point to the exclusion of the other.
So, Gregory, what is your view now? Do you believe that `Church of Christ is operative in the Catholic Church'?
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Originally posted by alice: In a way, I often wonder what difference it makes...
'The Catholic church says she is the one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church', or 'The Orthodox church says she is the one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church'...
Both are part of a whole that was estranged and divided, whether one, or both sides, want to accept that or not.
There is as much validity in being under the 'first among equals' of the apostles, as there is being under 'the other successors of the apostles'...
I see the whole church, Catholic and Orthodox, as being part of a family, ... still cousins, our mothers were still sisters, and we shared the same grandparents. Our cultural differences, likes, dislikes, second language ... perspectives, practices, and outlooks did not change that.Dear Alice, My sister in Christ. How wonderfully put! Prayerfully, in time, our common faith in God will be the subject of wise and wonderful discernment by our hierarchs, allowing us to fully and publically express together, through our common liturgical patrimony, what now we can only so advance in our hearts! God grant you many years in the special role you fulfill here, reminding each of us - Catholic and Orthodox - that it is God's will that someday soon we be both Catholic AND Orthodox. Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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The Catholic Church believes she has the fullness of the faith. Yet she also believes that "the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these [other] Churches." You are emphasizing one point to the exclusion of the other.
So, Gregory, what is your view now? Do you believe that `Church of Christ is operative in the Catholic Church'? DTB, your quote from Dominus Iesus is good and it summaries my original quote from the Catechism quite well. Here is the Orthodox position: The Orthodox Church alone is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. She alone contains the fullness of truth. The Grace of God is free and does operate outside of the VISIBLE realm of the Church, but never outside of the Church INVISIBLE. In other words for example, Grace can operate to whatever extent God wishes in the heart of a Protestant. But that Grace only opertates through the Protestant within the Church mystically and without the Protestant even knowing it. God is not bound by the VISIBLE borders of the Church. But, the fullness of Truth is evident within Her VISIBLE borders. The Truth of God cannot be viewed or discerned in all FULLNESS outside of the Church (but can sometimes be viewed to SOME EXTENT outside Her VISIBLE borders). From the Orthodox point of view, the Catholic Church participates in the Grace of God only within the extent that she proclaims and participates in the one, true Faith. Same with Protestants. That is why it is incorrect to say the Catholic Church (or Protestant churches)is PART of the FULLNESS of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Grace opertates in the Catholic Church, but not in the fullness of Truth. You have to be Orthodox in order to participate in the FULLNESS of Truth. But, you don't have to be Orthodox in order to experience God's Grace...its just not the FULLNESS of Grace. Greg
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I will break my silence just to posit a few points. The last council of the Roman Catholic Church, Vatican II, has much to say to clarify this discussion, and I will focus on just a few statements from her Decree on Ecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio. On the subject of particular Eastern theological outlook: What has just been said about the lawful variety that can exist in the Church must also be taken to apply to the differences in theological expression of doctrine.
In the study of revelation East and West have followed different methods, and have developed differently their understanding and confession of God's truth. It is hardly surprising, then, if from time to time one tradition has come nearer to a full appreciation of some aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or has expressed it to better advantage.
In such cases, these various theological expressions are to be considered often as mutually complementary rather than conflicting. Where the authentic theological traditions of the Eastern Church are concerned, we must recognize the admirable way in which they have their roots in Holy Scripture, and how they are nurtured and given expression in the life of the liturgy.
They derive their strength too from the living tradition of the apostles and from the works of the Fathers and spiritual writers of the Eastern Churches. Thus they promote the right ordering of Christian life and, indeed, pave the way to a full vision of Christian truth.
All this heritage of spirituality and liturgy, of discipline and theology, in its various traditions, this holy synod declares to belong to the full Catholic and apostolic character of the Church. We thank God that many Eastern children of the Catholic Church, who preserve this heritage, and wish to express it more faithfully and completely in their lives, are already living in full communion with their brethren who follow the tradition of the West. On the separation between Catholics and Orthodox: These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments and above all, by apostolic succession, the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are linked with us in closest intimacy. Therefore some worship in common (communicatio in sacris), given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not only possible but to be encouraged. More on this subject: All this heritage of spirituality and liturgy, of discipline and theology, in its various traditions, this holy synod declares to belong to the full Catholic and apostolic character of the Church. We thank God that many Eastern children of the Catholic Church, who preserve this heritage, and wish to express it more faithfully and completely in their lives, are already living in full communion with their brethren who follow the tradition of the West. On the respect of Rome towards the Eastern liturgical tradition: Everyone also knows with what great love the Christians of the East celebrate the sacred liturgy, especially the eucharistic celebration, source of the Church's life and pledge of future glory, in which the faithful, united with their bishop, have access to God the Father through the Son, the Word made flesh, Who suffered and has been glorified, and so, in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, they enter into communion with the most holy Trinity, being made "sharers of the divine nature".(35) Hence, through the celebration of the Holy Eucharist in each of these churches, the Church of God is built up and grows in stature(36) and through concelebration, their communion with one another is made manifest.
In this liturgical worship, the Christians of the East pay high tribute, in beautiful hymns of praise, to Mary ever Virgin, whom the ecumenical Council of Ephesus solemnly proclaimed to be the holy Mother of God, so that Christ might be acknowledged as being truly Son of God and Son of Man, according to the Scriptures. Many also are the saints whose praise they sing, among them the Fathers of the universal Church. Moreover, in the East are found the riches of those spiritual traditions which are given expression especially in monastic life. There from the glorious times of the holy Fathers, monastic spirituality flourished which, then later flowed over into the Western world, and there provided the source from which Latin monastic life took its rise and has drawn fresh vigor ever since. Catholics therefore are earnestly recommended to avail themselves of the spiritual riches of the Eastern Fathers which lift up the whole man to the contemplation of the divine.
The very rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern Churches should be known, venerated, preserved and cherished by all. They must recognize that this is of supreme importance for the faithful preservation of the fullness of Christian tradition, and for bringing about reconciliation between Eastern and Western Christians. On the Eastern tradition of ecclesial governance: Already from the earliest times the Eastern Churches followed their own forms of ecclesiastical law and custom, which were sanctioned by the approval of the Fathers of the Church, of synods, and even of ecumenical councils. Far from being an obstacle to the Church's unity, a certain diversity of customs and observances only adds to her splendor, and is of great help in carrying out her mission, as has already been stated. To remove, then, all shadow of doubt, this holy Council solemnly declares that the Churches of the East, while remembering the necessary unity of the whole Church, have the power to govern themselves according to the disciplines proper to them, since these are better suited to the character of their faithful, and more for the good of their souls. The perfect observance of this traditional principle not always indeed carried out in practice, is one of the essential prerequisites for any restoration of unity. This is from the official English translation from the Vatican, http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_..._19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html Roman Catholics certainly accept the development of doctrine, as Cardinal Newman himself so well stated in his extended essay of years past. And as such, one cannot look at any council such as Vatican I without the eyes and clarifications of the most recent Council Vatican II. May God bless you all and pray for me, a sinner.
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Dear Greg, Thank you for that lucid explanation! From the point of view of Orthodoxy, I am a heretic, but not necessarily a heretic without grace! That is reassuring! God bless, Alex
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Dearest brother Greg,
I understand your zeal, and have encountered it in many Orthodox, especially converts. God bless you for it... However, zeal often clouds one's understanding of what the other is trying to say...
There is nothing Protestant in my factual analogy of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches being parts of an estranged whole. What I am stating is history. The Patriarch of Rome, first among equals, and often deffered to for settlements in the early church, was as much a part of the first millenium church as were the other Patriarchs of the East. The parting of these 'brothers' happened because of mutual misunderstanding and sinfulness. Both are equally culpable in not having sought forgiveness and reconciliation of the other, as our Lord Himself has taught us.
The brothers evolved differently, but still remain brothers...the 'brothers' of the first church have absolutely nothing to do with Henry VIII breaking from Rome to marry, yet again, or with Martin Luther, or John Calvin, etc., etc., etc....so there is nothing 'Protestant' in what I am saying!!! The Protestants are not part of the first millenium whole.
As far as us being the only true church, I would reconsider the gravity of what you are saying...Our blessed and Most Holy Mother of God herself has appeared to St. Bernadette in Lourdes, France, three children in Fatima, Portugal, and to St. Juan Diego of Mexico, by writing the only icon written by heavenly hands! I would be very careful to tell her that she made a mistake and appeared to the wrong people.
Are there things today in the West which I don't like...absolutely, as there are things I have seen in Orthodox churches which I don't like. No one, save our Lord, is perfect. Yet, God doesn't take His Grace from the Church(es) because of it.
Our churches, our hierarchy and our laity will have alot to answer before the awesome judgement seat if our will to reconcile to fulfill what we both preach, (but don't practice very much) is not there. Fortunately there are some, like the Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch that are trying to obey God's commandment that we love each other...
In Christ,
Alice
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Thanks, Diak, for the additional references! Greg wrote: From the Orthodox point of view, the Catholic Church participates in the Grace of God only within the extent that she proclaims and participates in the one, true Faith. Same with Protestants. That is why it is incorrect to say the Catholic Church (or Protestant churches)is PART of the FULLNESS of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Interesting that from your point of view Catholics and Protestants appear to be on the same footing. I take it from your answer that you do not believe that the Church of Christ is operative in the Catholic Church, right? Your answer says that Grace can be there to an extent (just as it can be with Protestants...and perhaps elsewhere?) Now the Catholic position is one reconciling two points of doctrine: 1)that the Church subsists in the Catholic Church and 2)that those Churches which are separated from her but have true bishops, celebrate a true Eucharist, and have real Sacraments are evidence of the Church of Christ working in these Churches for the salvation of their members. You indicated you were RC before you became Melkite. Was your RC Baptism the real thing? Or was it `perfected' by your reception into Orthodoxy? When you received the Eucharist in the RC and Melkite Churches did you actually receive the Body and Blood of Christ? How about the rest of us Catholics here...do we receive Christ at Mass/Divine Liturgy?
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Deleted for double posting - sorry.
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Originally posted by alice:
Dearest brother Greg,
I understand your zeal, and have encountered it in many Orthodox, especially converts. God bless you for it... [b]However, zeal often clouds one's understanding of what the other is trying to say...
There is nothing Protestant in my factual analogy of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches being parts of an estranged whole. What I am stating is history. The Patriarch of Rome, first among equals, and often deffered to for settlements in the early church, was as much a part of the first millenium church as were the other Patriarchs of the East. The parting of these 'brothers' happened because of mutual misunderstanding and sinfulness. Both are equally culpable in not having sought forgiveness and reconciliation of the other, as our Lord Himself has taught us.
The brothers evolved differently, but still remain brothers...the 'brothers' of the first church have absolutely nothing to do with Henry VIII breaking from Rome to marry, yet again, or with Martin Luther, or John Calvin, etc., etc., etc....so there is nothing 'Protestant' in what I am saying!!! The Protestants are not part of the first millenium whole.
As far as us being the only true church, I would reconsider the gravity of what you are saying...Our blessed and Most Holy Mother of God herself has appeared to St. Bernadette in Lourdes, France, three children in Fatima, Portugal, and to St. Juan Diego of Mexico, by writing the only icon written by heavenly hands! I would be very careful to tell her that she made a mistake and appeared to the wrong people.
Are there things today in the West which I don't like...absolutely, as there are things I have seen in Orthodox churches which I don't like. No one, save our Lord, is perfect. Yet, God doesn't take His Grace from the Church(es) because of it.
Our churches, our hierarchy and our laity will have alot to answer before the awesome judgement seat if our will to reconcile to fulfill what we both preach, (but don't practice very much) is not there. Fortunately there are some, like the Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch that are trying to obey God's commandment that we love each other...
In Christ,
Alice [/b] Alice, God bless you. You put into words what I could not. This is another example why I should just read and keep my mouth shut when I come here.
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