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The only thing that resembles the Theology of the Orthodox Church is Alex stating that it doesn't know what God is doing outside of it. Stating that, there is no question that in the past the Slavic Churches pastorally treated Catholics very different than Protestants in receiving them (e.g. Johnstown, South Bound Brook and even Syosset). The Greeks (of course) were very different and even rechrismated returning Orthodox who had become Muslims.
These local variations are a result of the Church's Negative Theology (as opposed to Catholicism's Affirmative). Negative Theology is not however, agnostic. It just doesn't concern itself with impediments to Our Heavenly Father's descending steadfast and immeasurable LOVE unless the real need arises to do so. Speculation and dogmentation are alien concepts to Byzantine Theology. The Vatican II statements were Western statments about Eastern Churches (see Fr. Alexander Schmemann's solicited comments on the original Vatican II text.) Unfortunately, the current Vatican II texts available in Catholic bookstores does not contain the solicited commentaries.

Christ Is Among Us!

P.S. Note to webmaster, the original commentaries on the Vatican II documents (particularly related to Eastern Churches) would be great additions to the website.

Just the thoughts of a fool, thinking out loud!

Dear Three Cents,

Yes, thank you for acknowledging my presence on this thread!

I guess people don't want to hurt my feelings so they choose to focus on others!

And I can live with that!

Alex

Dear Administrator and brothers and sisters:

At the risk of violating some of the rules of this board, please forgive me for clipping a piece I posted in reply to the Administrator's topic of November 6, 2002 that is still available here.

I have been wondering about the Eucharist and the relationships of the Churches that are visibly separated for a long time and wonder if some of my thoughts resound with anyone else.

At some profound level, when any one of us approaches the Lord in the Liturgy to receive His Most Holy Body and Life-Giving Precious Blood, we are immediately and simultaneously present with Him at the Last Supper, at the Crucifixion on Golgotha, at the empty Tomb with Mary when we encounter Him with her, at the Ascension with the Apostles, and somehow--by anticipation?--already participating in welcoming Him back as part of His Glorious Second Coming. For me the sharing of the Eucharist is so profound and intense that sometimes I find myself all but overwhelmed. I believe that we are drawn into the eternal life of grace life right here and now that we hope to live forever--we have one foot in this life and one foot already in eternity, if you will permit me that, when we commune.

Now the Holy Trinity cannot be divided. I believe that we can all agree on that. I have come to a point where I see somewhat in a fuzzy fashion that all believers and their communities that have maintained the Apostolic succession, have preserved the faith that they have received, and live that faith out within the Liturgy as they have received it have somehow entered that same life of grace that I have.

I don't know and don't pretend to know how the many divisions we have, whether administrative or theological, enter here. But somehow, have faced this rather profound understanding that at some level that God alone can unravel and fully explain there is a communion--a common union--that we share simply because Christ cannot be divided as we sadly have been. I also understand that this does not paper over anything that has been discussed in this forum by the believers who care enough to wrestle with this painful area of Christian life.

But somehow, again God knows the how, the why, and the wherefore, when I participate in Christ and His Holy Body and Blood, each of the Orthodox and Catholic Christians, whether Eastern or Western, who have lived, live now, or ever will live, is united to me in Christ because His Mystery, that we participate in liturgically, is greater than all our expressions or experiences of it put together.

Please don't misunderstand this as religious indifferentism. I'm about as tough an opponent of that type of thinking as anyone else. This is an attempt to understand this mystery at a level deeper than we as human beings often get.

Do I make some sense here?

BOB

P.S.: The more I pray and meditate on this, the more I am convinced that the Holy Spirit is at work drawing believers together. I also believe that He will draw us together theologically over time in a way that will make us poor humans stand back in awe. Maybe that's a function of age. I have seen and lived with sincere people of all Christian stripes and, while we may have agreed on little, our common love of Christ and an intense desire to find and do His Will in our own lives and in the larger community in which we live have knit us together, though imperfectly. I have come to let the fights to the learned and decided to find what we can share in common. When I stand with a family on the edge of the grave on a daily basis, sharp-edged animosity just seems to be of no use. As one of the Desert Fathers put it, "here I have labored with what strength I have. I go to God not knowing if I have made a beginning of living the Christian life. But His Judgments I trust . . . they are right and just, all of them holy." In the end, I believe I will be asked how I have labored to make peace among those who have strife between them: how I reflect Christ Himself to others as a living icon.

Thank you Theophan for your thoughts. What you said is quite profound really. It was a blessing for me to contemplate on what you wrote. The Lord bless you.

Dear Bob,

Excellent - but the Orthodox Churches and the early Church of course affirmed and do affirm that the act of participation in Holy Communion is an ecclesial, communal act that affirms perfect unity in faith and worship.

It can never be an "imperfect unity" in these.

Truly, Christ is One and cannot be divided. But outside the unity of faith and worship ie. "Orthodoxy," there can be no perfect "Comm-union."

Alex

Alex:

I couldn't agree with you more that communion is a corporate ecclesial act as well as a deeply personal encounter with the Living God. I don't pretend to exhaust the thinking that the Church has done and expressed on this Holy Mystery wherein we encounter Christ over time, space, distance, and have eternity open to us now.

That having been said, I am reaching for some understanding on a deeper level of how the Churches of Apostolic origin are perhaps already in a communion that we are not aware of, that only God can reconcile when we cannot. We may even be witnessing something of this coming to our awareness when we see the Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholics reconciled on the level that they have been. There is also the increasing cooperation between the Melkites and the Byzantine Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch. We seem to be seeing some longstanding disputes being reconciled as we learn to understand each other's language and approach to the same mysteries and as we get to know each other and talk to each other. I will not argue any longer when someone tries to deny the reality of participation in the Body and Blood of Christ to someone else or another Apostolic community. Certainly there are communities that themselves deny the mystery we participate in and believe in, and have broken the Apostolic chain so as to be unable to enter it anyway. To me, they are the poorer for that.

But I believe that this is why this dispute needs to be viewed in a wider context than we have traditionally viewed it in.

In Christ,

BOB

And you as well.

I am new to this forum, and normally wouldn't even post,leaving it to those more learned than myself, but I found Gregory's statement on the Eucharist to be interesting and was surprised that no one caught it. In an earlier post He writes, quote:

" Concerning the Eucharist, the Orthodox Church takes, for the most part, an agnostic approach to this. Pesonally speaking, I believe that God gives his Grace to those who partake in the Mass/Eastern Liturgy with a pure and contrite heart. I don't believe, however, that Christ's Body and Blood are truly present. "

I am quite certain that the Orthodox DO believe in the true presence, Body and Blood, of Christ in the Eucharist. This a main tenet of the faith. This is the what leads the Catholic Church to consider the Orthodox Church to be a "sister church" with valid sacraments. This belief is also what leads the Catholic Church to offer the Eucharist to the Orthodox, if they are inclined to receive in the Catholic Church.
Without getting too technical, which could get me into trouble because I am not a theologian, the Catholic Church teaches the doctrine of "Transubstantiation" concerning the changing of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. The Orthodox Church, though it does not use this definition, does not reject it, and simply considers the transformation a mystery beyond explanation or definition, but definitely the "True and Real Presence".
Gregory's personal view on the Eucharist is a Protestant view at best, and does not place him in communion with either the Orthodox or the Catholic Church. If I am wrong on this, someone please correct me.

Bill,

Gregory was stating an accepted view of the Orthodox on Catholic sacraments not those of his own Orthodox Church.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Deacon Lance,
Thank You for this clarification. I misread what Gregory had written.

Having reread this thread and having a better understanding of Gregory's point of view I would like to comment.
I came to this forum because it is "Catholic".
Byzantine Catholic,I know, But I feel "Catholic" supersedes Roman, Byzantine, Armenian, etc.
I have a deep respect for all of the Eastern
Churches, Catholic and Orthodox. I revere the liturgy, prayers, icons, spirituality and traditions of the East. I once thought about converting to Eastern Orthodoxy, but my heart and, I believe, the Holy Spirit convinced me to remain in union with the Pope. I then thought about becoming Byzantine Catholic but realized
I was already in communion with the Byzantine Church, there was no need to leave the Roman Church. I was happy with the fact that I am a Roman Catholic with Byzantine brothers and sisters. Now to get to my point:
The Pope of Rome is the Successor of Peter and the Head of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Chuch. This was the will of Christ in establishing His Church on Earth. The Pope is the beacon of Christianity in this world. He is the center from which ALL Christians in this age either agree or dissent.
I know that the Orthodox will scoff at this and I know the arguments they use to rebut it.
I as a Catholic believe it.
I am familiar with the past injustices that have occurred in the name of Christ and His Church, and that much of but not all of the blame lays with Rome.
The Pope has publicly, humbly, and truly asked and prayed for forgiveness for these past sins. In my knowledge, the only Christian leader to have done so. I believe the Pope truly serves in charity to all humanity in the Name of Christ.
One can spout all of the polemics they want but when it comes down to it there is not a whole lot that separates the faith of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches besides politics, mistrust, and nationalism. May we all pray that one day these differences can be overcome.

Dear Bill,

Welcome to the Forum!

Actually, this forum is NOT Catholic - it is an Eastern Christian forum where Eastern spirituality truly DOES supercede all else!

Just ask the Administrator, if you don't believe me . . .

Alex

Dear Alex,
Thank You for welcoming me to this forum.
(I hope your welcome wasn't sarcastic!)
You are right. In my haste to post my thoughts, I labelled the entire forum as being "Catholic".
What I should have written was that on this particular topic "Catholic" supersedes any name put in front of it.
I come to this website and forum often to learn more about the Eastern Catholic Churches. When I finally did decide to post, I tramped in like an elephant rather than tiptoeing, much like Rome has done in the past regarding the Eastern Churches.
I too don't agree with the idea that "Catholic is Catholic is Catholic",(I've seen this mentioned in other threads), when it comes at the expense of the particular churches.
Now that I've taken this thread TOTALLY away from it's original topic, I will quietly fade into the background and go back to listening and learning as I attempt to remove my foot from my mouth. ( I knew I'd get into trouble.)

Dear Bill,

You're O.K. Bill, you are O.K.!

As for this forum being Catholic, I continue to make that mistake myself from time to time . . .

God bless,

Alex

Dear Bill,

Welcome to The Byzantine Forum!

What Alex wrote is not quite correct.

In order for The Byzantine Forum to be a home for all Eastern Christians it must necessarily respect all legitimate Eastern Christian viewpoints. Think about this forum as you would about an ecumenical dialogue commission, with the participants of the Forum being the members of the commission. Each Church on such a commission is given equal respect to present their views on the issues being discussed. Likewise, each participant in the Forum is given equal respect to present his or her views on the issues. That�s really all there is to the Forum. And, of course, charity is the primary rule.

Admin