www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Celibate Clergy and Latin Catholics

Joe,

I personally like you and support the return of Latin traditions amongst Latins.

But there you go again: "from people who call themselves Catholic." It's the same old, same old. "You byzantines don't agree with out practices. How can you call yourself a Catholic." If that's not what you mean, then it sure sounds like it.

No one wants you to switch rites if you aren't enculturated into our Rite. We're happy to have you spend time with us, though. And we'll visit you, too.

God bless you, but perhaps you should occasionally visit us and let us know what's new?

In Christ,

anastasios

+JMJ+

I seem to have blown a gasket and I came here to apologize. But I am still not coming back.

Joe Zollars

With all due respect to Mr. Zollars, I must step in and point out that he has been incorrect in every single complaint he has against us Byzantines:


Fine. You don't need to announce it and keep announcing. People come and go all the time and that's the way things should be.


No one has ever asked you to switch. My suggestion is that grow where you have been planted.


Mr. Zollars has yet to provide a single reference in which any Byzantine on this board has attacked the Latin Rite.

In an earlier post he wrote:

Where was the thread in which a Byzantine actually stated that the Latin Church must adopt a married priesthood? Please, Mr. Zollars, provide the quote. I think that the main part of your argument for priestly celibacy in the Latin Church is that you (and most who argue for priestly celibacy) attempt to raise it to a level of doctrine. Simply put, the Latin Church has chosen this discipline to allow its priests to devote themselves more fully to their priesthood. This is a perfectly acceptable choice for the Latin Church. This has nothing to so with sacramental theology. We simply do not force those men with both vocations to choose between them.

Joe also stated that:

Mr. Zollars would break communion with the Catholic Church over the discipline of a married priesthood? There is no doctrine or dogma about this issue in any of the Catholic or Orthodox Churches. This is merely a discipline and can be changed by the appropriate authorities within the Church if she chooses to do so. By contrast we Byzantine Catholics chose to remain loyal to Rome even when Rome mistreated us by denying us a perfectly valid and Catholic discipline of a married priesthood, which was ours for 2,000 years.

Mr. Zollars, as a young adult, is clearly discerning between the vocations of marriage and priesthood. He has our prayers that he will listen to the Lord's calling and will follow it.

The voice of wisdom has spoken. I want to apologize for what I have said in this thread.

It appears I was looking for a fight where there wasn'tone to begin with.

joe zollars

It happens, Joe...don't worry about it.

**You're eighteen? I figured you for slightly older...mid twenties or something. I'm twenty for only four more months.

Joe, your contribution to this forum is invaluable. Yes, I know one's patience is tested, with one being prone to succumbing to anger and outrage, in topics such as these (which is why I decided to withdraw entirely from the Palestinian Christian thread), but you have come to learn much in your sojourn here, and have shown yourself in my eyes to be a strong, zealous, and dedicated Catholic, and I'm sure have impressed us with such qualities at your age.

You have realized that the Churches are different worlds on their own, and that to transfer is not as simple and without need of much thought as you may have suspected before, and I'm sure as a result you had intermittently learned to appreciate the traditions of the Churches ever so more. Let me state your respect for the East is most admirable, and that we may at times fail to reciprocate, which would understandably frustrate you. But your admirable conduct and recoveries from the occasional outburst are an example. We all have our prejudices.

Please stay, and do not let human failings on anyone's part discourage you from remaining.

I'm sure you will make an excellent priest if that is the path laid out for you.

In IC XC
Samer

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Augustine,

Tradition and Canons of both the Eastern Catholic Churches and the eastern Orthodox Churches clearly state that a priest, laity, etc do not partake of marital relations prior to serving at the Divine Liturgy. Unlike the Roman Catholic Church, most Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox serve only one Litugy in a normal week, with the exception of Major feast Days, and thus the ruling against marital relationships the night prior to a Divine Liturgy is not a burden upon the Marriage.

It should also be noted that marital relations are likewise not allowed in any fasting period of the Church so to the Orthdox that includes most Wednesdays and Fridays, all of Great lent, the Apostles Fast, The fast of the Theotokos or Dormition Fast, and the Nativity Fast. We should all remeber that sexual relations in marriage are good and blesed by God but even greater is the non-sexual intimacy that a married couple (priest or laity) have year round in and out of the fast.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

Dear Joe,

The experience of saying you'll leave here, and then come back, time and again, is something that I have a passing familiarity with .

If I have touched off something in you, it is because I see so much of myself in you at your age.

As for being so wise at so young an age, as Samer said, that is what they used to say about me years ago too .

Now I'm just an old so-so

Alex

Joe,

Your apology was a very mature act. We all write things that can be read different ways and I guess need to be careful both in our writing and reading.

I, myself had to read twice when you wrote "bring back all male altar servers"

At first I thought you meant altar servers from the fottball team rather than the limp-wristed variety!!!!!!!!!!!

Axios

Just thought I'd add fuel to the fire. My sister forwarded me this mass email apparently sent from Fr. Joseph Fessio, S.J., Publisher, Ignatius Press. I nearly blew a gasket.

His 'points' have already been covered in this thread I suppose, but I would be interested hearing additional comments.

- Henri

-------------------------------------------
A message from Fr. Joseph Fessio, S.J., Publisher, Ignatius Press.

In the papers, on the talk shows, the mantra is repeated: the cure for the present scandals is a married clergy. Of course, celibacy has nothing to do with these scandals: 1) Look at the Anglican church, which may soon be bankrupt in western Canada because of sex abuse lawsuits. 2) The majority of reported cased are of homosexual relations with young boys, not pedophilia; the perpetrators wouldn't be marrying women even if they had the chance. (And what kind of woman would marry these twisted souls?)

And, of course, all the discredited myths about the discipline of celibacy in the Catholic Church are trotted out.

For example:

Celibacy wasn't imposed in the Church until the 6th (or 9th, or 10th) century.


The motive for imposing celibacy was to prevent Church property from being inherited by the children of the clergy.
The truth is that the Church's obligation of celibacy goes back to the apostles in an *unbroken* line. And the motivation for celibacy was the closer following of Jesus Christ, who required his apostles to leave wife and family, to become "eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom". But don't take my word for it. Ignatius Press has published three books which demolish the myths and provide compelling evidence for this unbroken tradition, the jewel of the Catholic priesthood:

The Case for Clerical Celibacy by Cardinal Alfons Stickler. This short (106pp) book masterfully sums up the results of the most authoritative scholarly research.

The Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy by Fr. Christian Cocchini, S.J. This more extensive (466pp) book is the definitive scholarly study on this subject. It has never been refuted for the simple reason that it is irrefutable--all the evidence we have is clearly and cogently presented.

Celibacy in the Early Church by Stefan Heid. This book presents a penetrating and wide-ranging study of the historical data from the early Church on the topics of celibacy and clerical continence.

You'll also learn that the much-vaunted married clergy in Eastern churches was an innovation of the 7th century (Council *in Trullo*, 691--never recognized by Rome) based on documents later found out to have been forged. Skeptical?

Read it for yourself.

-------------------

I don't mean to be rude, but was this genuinely a case of Latins making disciplines seem quasi-dogmatic, or was this email just an ad for Ignatius Press' publications? Either way, I'm not amused...

Hmm. Looking at the email again, it sure reads like an ad. Regardless, you're right - it doesn't amuse.

Does anyone know where I can access some worthy critical analysis on any of those books?

Also, can anyone share some information or point me in the right direction for info on the council of Trullo?

Thanks,

Henri

As far as I can remember the Holy Father said no such thing about the issue of Celibacy. In fact he admitted that it was merely a human tradition and disciple and it was capable of change.
He said that the question of the ordination of women was out of bounds and that Holy Tradition did not allow it nor never will allow it.
Stephanos I

With all the discussion about celibacy, and its being the so-called "higher" calling, it would seem to the casual observer that marriage was a license for sex. Whether one is married or not are we not all called to chastity? As a married man and the father of six children, marriage is a heluva lot more than just sex. I know (and hope) this is not the case, but it appears to me that many people equate marriage with sex. Ask any married person the amount of time devoted to sex in the marriage and many would be shocked that sexual intercourse is not one of those things that account for even 5% of the time in a marriage.

Yet, as someone did post, marriage is about intimacy and companionship, from which the sexual intimacy develops.

The Cardinal Archbishop of Bologna once said to a group that there is not much difference between himself and the married man, since both are called to chastity. For the Archbishop, he forsook all women in the world. For the married man he too forsook all women in the world, except for his wife.

To Dr John:
The word monk is derived from the Greek
monachos, one who lives alone, not monarchos, though I guess some monks may believe they are monarchs over the monastery .

[ 04-20-2002: Message edited by: bisantino ]

Augustine!!!

I think you are the person to lead us (Latin Church) into the 21st century! If you lead, I will follow. Where do I sign up?

***

Admin,

You are 100% correct, the Eastern Catholics have showed 100% fidelity to the Holy Father, even when our Latin Church has been forcibly unfair to you. We are tested not in times of convienince but in those times of hardship those times of contreversy.

***

Joe,

I think you had a point, the tone of some of the posts where a bit uncharitable towards the Latin Church. But I think you will find Alex and Dr John rather overly charitable (if that possible?) people. They both are seasoned adults (another way of me saying they are up in age) that are very well educated and intelligent, yet they are rather pateint, kind, and not overly puffed up in pride. Not always traits you find in men that have acheived what they have. Actually it's rather sickening.

Like Mor I took you to be in your twenties. Most 18 year old male kids aren't concerned with preserving the celibate Priesthood. I know I wasn't at 18. So this speaks highly of you. Of course you could just be A-sexual but then the Priesthood would be the perfect place for you, and I wouldn't have to worry about you placing your paws on my wife when she comes to you for confession and her overly "erotic" husband.


But then that's just my 2 cents