www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Turning West?

I agree, and rather than calling him names he should be commended for being a seeker. In fact if this is really a teen I am very impressed by his knowledge, far beyond his years. I too would encourage him to stay away from schismatics, but what he needs is encouragement, not criticism.
And Alex, need I say that the Protestants I am defending are Evangelical and Pentecostal, not mainstream? These are practically different species, and none I have known would be caught dead praying the rosary. Indeed, as I said, there is much lacking in their gospel, but they do proclaim the fundamental and simple message of salvation, however even that is wrought with error. This has a personal note for me; my sister has started attending a Baptist church. Now the Baptist religion is to me about the least attractive of the many Protestant sects but when she tells me that the preacher is boldly proclaiming Christ, that for the first time she feels a personal closeness to Jesus and is reading the Bible I find it hard to do less than commend her, though I encourage her to attend liturgy on Saturday evenings so she can receive the Eucharist as well. I know, technically it is forbidden for a Catholic to regularily worship in a non-Catholic church, but I want to keep the lines of communication open and I am hoping that with her newfound personal faith the Catholic Mass may become more meaningful as well. The Catholic Church has for the most part done a poor job evangelizing and catechizing its own in recent decades [at least]. Anyway, please pray for my sister.

Daniel,

In the time that Teen has been here he has matured enormously.

I think most of us have come to admire the way he has read and asked questions and comes to debate with us all.

We may not agree with all he says - but we certainly respect him for his openness.

We appreciate that he is still at the discernment stage .

I might add also that he gives as good as he gets .

apologies for that - it 'hung'

Dear Daniel,

Well, I know two wives of Greek Catholic priests who "came to the Lord" at Evangelical Baptist/Pentecostal services and, after that experience, became very devout Catholics and even wives of EC priests.

When I was in the Charismatic Renewal, our prayer groups almost always had about 15% Protestants (I did some surveys in my time ).

And there are Baptists and others who are members of the Ecumenical Society of the Blessed Virgin Mary . . .

When a group I belong to once had an ecumenical gathering at a Baptist church, I was asked to read one of the lessons.

I said fine . . .

I went up to the front and saw an opened Bible surrounded with flowers there.

I went forward and crossed myself twice with bows before the Book, then leaned forward to kiss it, then crossed myself again with a low bow - before going to read.

Afterwards, I was invited to come visit with the clergy. The Baptist pastor hugged me and said, "How wonderful for you of the Eastern Church to be with us today!"

The choirmaster came to me and said, "You know, I used to be Russian Orthodox. But what you did in church really reminded me how much I miss my Church!"

Remember, Big Guy, as Cardinal Newman said, when the Protestants come to the Church, they will only need to build on the foundations they already have.

What you are doing with your sister is correct. Build on the foundations she is grounding herself in.

You will eventually show her that the Bible she has received from the Baptists comes originally from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Give your sister a hug from me!

Alex

I'd like to thank Alex, Daniel, and Anhelyna for complimenting me. It is not deserved.


Is being "gung-ho" for the Latin Catholic Church bad? You seem to present it in an unfavorable light. Just because I love the Latin Church doesn't mean I don't love the Eastern Catholic Churches any less.


That's admirable and courageous. Obviously God was really working within you.

Of course you cannot, Don. You neither know me nor my situation in this regard. Although I've already contacted the Novus Ordo priest, I am delaying because I do not know whether I want to be received through the Traditional Roman Rite or the Novus Ordo Rite. There are thousands of pluses and minuses for me to weigh out. I'm sorry if I'm too undecided or slow-going for you, but I have my spiritual welfare to worry about.

I won't go into what I think about the SSPX "schism" here, because it is neither the place nor the time. Barring that, suffice it to say that I do not encourage schismatic Eastern Catholic groups.

I said yesterday in one of my other posts (can't remember which, maybe you could find it for me) that I do not encourage Latin Catholic, SSPX, or Eastern Catholic proselytization of Orthodox. Please, don't put words in my mouth.


My reasons for waiting are abovementioned.

Okay, I can buy that. I know I can come off that way, but it's not intentional. Regardless, that's not an acceptable excuse, and I promise to work on this problem. Maybe it's because the discussions here are so intelligent, I feel I have to throw out anything and everything I know just to keep up.

Okay, Anthony. Funny that I specifically stated that, although the Latin Catholicism has no superior, it does have equals.

This, to me, is what the Communion is all about. All of the Catholic Churches and their liturgical practices are equal in the eyes of God.

Don and Anthony,

I know it's easy to presuppose and prejudge why someone is (or isn't) doing something. I'm guilty of this; I do it constantly. But that doesn't make it right. Y'all, frankly, have no idea why I'm waiting. I tried it explaining it above, but of course it's impossible to totally express the entirely and enormity of the situation in one single post. It's funny, and a little hurtful, that you could so easily judge my motives without ever meeting me.

I am trying to further myself spiritually. Please be patient and understanding. I ask for your prayers.

Logos Teen

P.S. - I found my post. I'll reproduce it here.

Logos Teen

Dear Teen Logo,

You are O.K., Big Guy, we love you and you bring your own unique perspective here - as do I .

And we want what's best for you and sometimes see your strong Catholic convictions as the Voice of God prodding you on to join Christ's Catholic Church - when you are ready.

Keep on posting as you have.

Just be careful of your facts.

If you are not exact, Neil the Irish Melkite will come after you!

God bless you and happy Thanksgiving!

Alex

May I submit a quote from Cardinal Spidlik's "The Spirituality of the Christian East- The Nature of Contemplation ", which I came upon last night's reading and reference to Luke 10:38-42, " The Eastern Church has frequently been compared to Mary and the Western Church to Martha".

"Mary sat at the Lord's feet to listen and Martha was running around serving much and asked the Lord for Marys help, and He replied Martha Martha you are anxious and troubled by many things, one thing is needful and Mary has chosen the good portion, which shall not be taken away from her".

New Oxford RSV annotated note: " With delicate ambiguity Jesus rebuked Martha's choice of values; a simple meal(dish)is sufficient for hospitality, Jesus approved Mary's preference for listening to His teaching as contrasted with Martha's unneeded acts of hospitality".

I find this very interesting in describing East & West. Please forgive the many edits, I have a bad cold that is messing with the old thought process.

Happy Post T-Day,
james

Hi Teen,

You sound very sincere in your watch and pray approach to conversion. Let the Lord guide you. More than you yourself, He wants the best for your soul. He wants you to find the right place to be....

I plan to keep you in my prayers. Remember, ultimately, what you are choosing in choosing to join the Church is to find and embrace the truth.....and to be a part of the body of Christ....partaking in the glorious and unspeakably beautiful Eucharistic communion, and finding yourself a part of the great throng that sings "Holy, holy holy" in this world....joining with those in Heaven. The Liturgy....I could go on a long time......

You need to think through many things before you commit yourself to the Church, but after a certain length of time, you may feel the Lord calling you to take a leap of faith, into the arms of incredible truth, a truth so deep it can not be felt, but must only be believed, and then better understood.

Don't be afraid to jump!

May God shine His light on your path....

Unity In Christ

I think this has been one of the most positive discussions I've seen in a while. Wonderful!

As one who has chosen to join the Eastern Church coming from a Western background, I have noticed a gradual maturation process within myself as it pertains to my views on the Church of my origins. After the initial joy of "discovering" the East (much like Christopher Columbus "discovered" America! :rolleyes: ), I went through what could be deemed a spiritually adolescent rebellion against my Western patrimony. I tried to view all of my former Latin devotional practices and theological perspectives through the eyes of the East, and in my own mind, saw them as radically deficient. Such a view almost drove me into the arms of Orthodoxy.

Since then, I believe that I have come to a much more balanced and Catholic view of this great heritage. While I definitely fully embrace my new identity now as an Eastern Catholic, I don't feel it necessary to always point out the deficiencies (real or imagined) of my Western bretheren.

Besides, as I understand the nature of Byzantium, part of its strength lies in its deep roots in the three great theological streams of Apostolic Tradition: Latin, Greek and Syrian. For any Byzantine (Catholic or Orthodox) to despise the Latins is to engage in a subtle form of self-hatred.

With that said, of course we should still vigorously defend our Eastern heritage against any Latin intrusions, as well as extend our missionary efforts wholeheartedly in the West. Just as a new husband and wife must fully be and possess themselves in order to fully give themselves to each other in marriage, so we in the Catholic East should fully possess and celebrate our own identity so that we might more fully manifest the Catholicity of the Church living the parable of communion.

Peace and all good -

Gordo, sfo
Cantor and Catechist

To Easterners hostile to Roman Catholicism I ask: how much of the world would be Christian if it were not for Western missionaries? I'm afraid Christianity would be a marginal sect instead of a worldwide [catholic] phenomenon.

Teen, if you can't run with the big dogs, then stay on the porch. Moe

Dear Daniel,

What you say is very true, Big Guy.

But I think we need to address historic Orthodox hostility to the West and see if this cannot be redressed somehow.

In addition, RC missionary work today is one thing - in history, it is perhaps something else, and very much aligned to imperial conquest and colonialism.

Orthodoxy has its missionary tradition too that often goes unrecognized.

Let's remember that the RC West effectively killed the mission potential of China with its dismissal of the Chinese rites in the time of the famous Jesuit/Franciscan controversy.

It was the Orthodox St Theodore of Smolensk who, during his political embassy to the Khan, married his daughter and established Orthodox Churches in the Far East. His two sons, Sts. David and Constantine, assisted their father in this regard.

Orthodox missionaries went to Siberia, Japan and Alaska. St Philotheus Leschynsky of Siberia (the Apostle of Siberia) established hundreds upon hundreds of churches there. Then there was the intrepid modern missionary, St John Maximovich of Shanghai. On the day of his canonization, people sang his praises around the globe in many languages!

And, despite the fact that North America has had such a long tradition of both RCism and Protestantism, this does not prevent Western Christians from "jumping ship" so to speak to partake of the riches of the Christian East.

And while RCism is a cultural fact in Latin America and Europe, how Catholic are these two continents in fact? I'm just asking the question.

Alex

Moe,

I find it pretty (no, very) pathetic that your only input at this Forum is to attempt to degrade other Christians. If you're really in need of that much attention, get a pet...or unload it on your wife (if you have one) or something. Your vicious and uncharitable nature isn't appreciated here; it's a Christian forum.

So, to paraphrase your asinine and imbecilic comment (not to mention metamorphize it into a sentece worth typing), "If you can't be charitable with the Christians, stay out of the forum." :p

God bless,
Logos Teen

Gordo -
That seems to be the normal course for converts to the East (myself and my husband included). What's sad is those who don't grow beyond the "more Orthodox than the Orthodox" stage and find that balance you speak of.
Tammy