www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West A lurker who is leaving.

For a long time I have been a "lurker" on this discussion board. I am a devout Roman Catholic who has been trying to get to know my whole Church..eastern and western better. While I have found much useful information here, I have been totally disgusted by the continual and tolerated (and agreed with by many so-called Catholics) slurs on the Liturgy of my Church. The Orthodox posters on this board are anti-Catholic plain and simple and have no place here. Were a Roman Catholic to be making the same statements about the Eastern Liturgy as these people are making about the Roman Mass, they would be banned from posting. And too many of you Eastern Catholics are allowing and in many cases agreeing with them! We are supposed to be family, no matter what our rite! I hope and pray that this is not representative of all Eastern Catholics, if so, then maybe you should die out in the Catholic Church. I recognize that the Roman Church has not always treated you fairly, but believe that with the coming of the II Vatican Council and especially with the thoughts of our Holy Father JP II, a new time has begun in the relationship between the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Roman Catholic Church...it is time to move on from the past. We must learn from past mistakes and do all in our power to prevent them from occuring again, but above all we must love and respect one another. In another place there is a discussion between which are you...Eastern or Catholic. There should only be one answer...both, they cannot be separated. If they can, then you are not Catholic. I pray that God will enlighten the posters on this board to have a more Chistian and loving acceptance of not only the Othodox, but also their Roman Catholic brothers and sisters and their Rites as well. But I won't be here to see it. I am shaking the dust from my feet and moving on. If I want to hear the evils of Romanism, I can read the literature my Jehovah's Witness neigbors are always trying to give me...but at least they are polite when I decline to accept it.

Maria

I am one Latin Catholic who does not believe that criticism of the new Roman liturgy, especially as it has come to be celebrated in most of the western world, is a bad thing. Cardinal Ratzinger himself has been critical of the post-Vatican II liturgical renewal. Anyone who reads the documents of Vatican II (not the post-conciliar documents) can see quite plainly that the reform of the liturgy envisioned there is not anywhere close to what we see in most of our Latin rite churches.
I think Maria that you are being quite unfair to the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics on this list who have criticized what the west has done to its liturgy. I do not see their criticisms as attacks on the Roman Liturgy. It seems to me that Orthodox believers such as Serge and Brendan, for instance, would like to see the Roman Liturgy returned to its full splendor. So also would such groups as the Adoremus society. So also would many good and holy Catholic priests that I know. So also would I.

Ed

Thanks, Ed.

Olya, is that you?

http://oldworldrus.com

Maria,

I don't recall seeing any criticism of the Latin liturgy. I've seen some criticism of the abuses of it but what right minded Catholic wouldn't criticize the abuses?

BTW are you Diane Marie?

Dan Lauffer

Dear Maria,
Please forgive me if I've sounded anti-Catholic: that certainly has not been my intention. I love traditional Roman Catholic spirituality and liturgy, and consider myself very open to the west.

I think there is also a difference between "Roman Liturgy" and "Novus Ordo Mass." There are many different liturgies used in the Church of Rome-perhaps in the US the Novus Ordo English version is the most common. While I wish that this was the standard for most RC parishes in the U.S., I'm afraid its not
http://www.atonementonline.com/orderofmass/Rite1.html

web page [atonementonline.com]

Please don't leave-there is a diversity of opinions on this site, probably more so than any other I've visited.

God Bless,

Michael King

Dear Maria,

I too am an RC as all here know. Yes, at times I do get irritated by the impressions I receive but at the same time I understand the feelings of the Eastern Members.After all I am a guest here on their Forum. Having said that, when I post I am listened to with courtesy.

I have to say I have received a lot of support , particularly recently when I was greatly in need of help and I have made some good friends who are thousands of miles away from me.

I feel I have learned a tremendous amount from all here - Catholic and Eastern , and I am most grateful for their patience and forebearance.

May Our Blessed Lady, Mother of all of us, my Mistress keep you in Her tender care.

Angela

[ 01-13-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

My Fellow Posters (and Lurkers),

"Regarding the position of the priest celebrant, Thomas Day has some excellent things to say about that, particularly the "Star Wars throne room' look of too many American NO sanctuaries. "Puffff... hissss... bring Luke Skywalker to me! Now let's join hands and sing “Isn't God a Nice Guy!” Have a nice day.' Seriously, distorting the altar like that changes the service from Godward common prayer into "the Father Bob Show'. His face is in the spotlight, sometimes literally, and perhaps enjoying the ego boost he feels compelled to perform and ad-lib (to show just what a charming guy he is), as in "Good evening, ladies and germs'. Ugh."
(Posted by Serge)

There are so many things I want to say in response to postings like the one above and to others which express disdain or mockery, overt or subtle, for the Latin Liturgy or our liturgical ways. What I say I really want to say in a spirit of love and peace.

It seems to me that Maria is not speaking about constructive criticism of abuses which appear in the celebration of the Liturgy of the Latin Church. Nor, it seems to me, is she speaking of postings which recognize that the current Liturgy, called the NO by some, is the legitimate form of worship in our Church. Nor is she talking about respectful discussion of ceremony even if the poster expresses unhappiness or dissatisfaction with it in respectful terms.

Nor am I. What I speak about is the ongoing inappropriate insertion of the Latin Liturgy into threads where it distracts from the discussion already under way on another topic. I am bringing to your attention the language with which points about our Liturgy are made. Like the quote above, they are mocking. They are inappropriate and they are unnecessary. Did I say, they are ongoing!

Certainly everyone has the right to his or her opinion. Some people appreciate the form of worship in the Latin Church and some don't. some poeple appreciate the form of worship in the Byzantine Churches, in the Catholic or the Orthodox Communions, and some don't. People have a right to express those opinions.

But, it seems to me that there should be no support on a Forum provided by a member Church of the Catholic Communion for mistatement of fact, for misinformation, for misrepresentation of the reality of the liturgy of any Church of that Communion. For that matter such behavior concerning the liturgy of any of God's Churches including the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox is unacceptable, dont' you think?

I am certain that it does not follow forum rules to use words to express hatred of a rite of any of our Churches. It is incongruous for a Forum such as this one to tolerate words which treat any liturgy with disrespect or mockery. If I am not mistaken, respectful talk about such things is included among the guides for posters here.

I've been posting here for a long time now. During that time my focus has been on learning of the East from those who are in the East (not necessarily geographically of course). It has been difficult to maintain that focus because the Latin Liturgy so often becomes a negative focus here.

I reviewed my postings recently. It amazes me that I have spent most of my posting space here dealing with behavior which surprises me. I have posted over and over to posters who have misrepresented what the Latin Church teaches, who have misinformed about what the Liturgy of our Church is about and how it is celebrated, or how it came about. I have identified clearly places in postings where there are examples of such things when I have responded to them.

Another significant portion of the postings consist of pointing out words and writings which overtly or subltly belittle or mock our Liturgy or practices. Still another portion deals with the postings of writings in which the treatment of fellow posters seemed to be out of character on a Christian forum.

I don't want to belabor the point, but it has reached the point where even some of the Eastern posters have spoken out about the situation. The Latin Litury has become a whipping boy. It has been suggested on the Byzantine Forum by posters, not Latin Catholic, that members of the Latin Church would have been cut off, by the poster, from communion with our Church 30 years ago because they have been label liberal. Things are so bad that a posting earlier in this thread contains the notion that the Latin Liturgy is not the same as the Novus Ordo Mass.

Come on! The Pope celebrates it.

Our Liturgy has been presented as lessor and as not exemplifying well some abstract construct model of liturgical practices which is alleged to be traditional. It has been suggested that it is the responsibility of Orthodox believers to help restore our liturgy so that it will be easier to bring about reunion.

One of the places where I go to to learn about the East is the Indiana Orthdox list. My fellow posters, would such behavior be tolerated there?

I am not the only poster who has raised the issue of improper treatment of the Latin Liturgy. Don has raised it. Olga raised it only to be told that the poster she has issues with was really pro Catholic Orthodox and that she should apologize!

The poster with whom Olaga was addressing then referred to his recent posting of a mocking description of the manner of distribution of the Eucharist in our Churches to explain to the people on that thread why Olga was upset! He even reposted the remarks which led to Olga's comments in the first place. Let me repost the remarks:

"Thanks, Anastasios. On one of the Adoremus threads or "Rite or Wrong' I said comparing Byzantine Rite Communion under both kinds to the American Novus Ordo free-for-all with Hosts fingered like hors d'oeuvres and chalices grabbed from lay "ministers' for self-Communion is a sick joke. Nothing at all about the Roman Mass per se."
(Posted by Serge)

It seems that no one else thought to note that the distribution of the Eucharist by lay ministers is part of our Liturgical practice. The poster was indeed talking about an authorized litugical practice in the Latin Church. Olga was left hanging. That practice is not an abuse and is part of the Mass per se as it is realized in the real world!

Maria has raised the issue. Let me refer you to several threads on a couple of Forums that contain examples of what we are responding to:

"'Eastern PreSuppositions' and Western Liturgical Renewal," Forum : East and West Page three of postings in the index for that forum.

"Anyone Familiar with the Journal Adoremus," Forum: East and West Current index page.

"Rite or Wrong," Forum: Byzantine Faith or Worship
Current index page.

I include the whole threads so that you can peruse the total range of postings in their context.

In the thread Comparative Liturgics, begun by Brendan there is a frank discussion on these issues. As I stated there:

"...it appears {that} some other posters, see ... inappropriate behavior. They and I see some posters simply inject the Latin Liturgy into threads where it does not belong distracting from the topic already under discussion there. They misrepresent its meaning or content or value. Some of their language is belittling or mocking It has become a whipping boy. "

Like Angela, I find acceptance and kindness here. I try to return that. I learn here. I try to share information here when appropriate.

I do not believe that I or the other posters who raise the issue of the treatment of the Latin Church and its Liturgy enjoy having to do it. I know that I don't.

I'm not even attributing evil intent to anyone. I am saying that there is treatment of things that people hold dear that is not accurate or kind or courteous or fair. There are things being said here that belittle and divide us rather than bring together and enlighten us.

I am not going anywhere. I am here to learn. I hope that I can focus on that. But, like you, I love my Church and its liturgies and practices.

We are not perfect. I know that that's hard to believe, but its true. We are a work in progress by God! He's not finished with us yet!

If you think that we need to be reminded of it, please use the words that you want addressed to you by others. Treat the things that are important to others in the way that you want them to treat those things that are important to you.

I think that's all any of us are asking. Is that too much to ask?

Just a thought, I wonder how many lurkers walked away without saying anything? I wonder what message they carry about the people here and the Churches that they represent? Will they say of us, "We know that they are Christian by their love?"

I have not written to offend anyone. I believe all of the posters here to be honorable. However, sometimes I wonder if some of the the behavior, which appears to be evidence of invincible ignorance, really is.

Please do not allow the written expression impede the meaning or the love!

Fraternally,

Steve

JOY!

[ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

[ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

[ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

[ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

[ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

Thank you Steve, you said it that with much greater clarity and charity than I could have.
Don

Dear Don,

Thank you for your kind words. Please keep me in your prayers. It is taxing to have to deal with the topics I addressed in a place where Christian Love is supposed to be the norm. It's hard to hold onto the love!

Steve.

Like many here, I am saddened that Maria has felt persecuted by those posters who indeed frequently "bash" the liturgy of the Roman Rite. Despite what some may say, the so-called "Novus Ordo" is the Mass of the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church and has been since the current missal was published in 1969, under the authority of Pope Paul VI.

I personally don't see what all the "hoopla" is about the Roman mass. Perhaps it is quite different from the Tridentine Rite used prior to the reforms, but please, the current ritual has been in use for over 30 years and can hardly be considered new anymore. I am not one of those who had the opportunity to experience the mass as celebrated before the Second Vatican Council, so for me, it is somewhat difficult to imagine what it was like in "all its splendor" but I do think that it is time for everyone to admit that the missal of Pope Paul VI has been, is and will most likely be the mass of the Latin Church for a long time, at least the rest of our lifetimes. Those who harbor false hopes of a return to pre-concilliar liturgical forms are simply not dealing with reality - nothing more, nothing less.

While I do not have extensive experience with the Roman Rite in countries other than the US, I cannot believe that there are such major differences from place to place, that it would not be recognizable. To me, when I watch the mass as celebrated by the Holy Father in Rome and in all of the countries to which he has traveled, I see virtually the exact same service that is celebrated in every Latin parish I have attended here. While language, music and cultural traditions certainly vary, the structure, wording and manner of celebration appear to be universal. So people, what are the great differences across the globe, that exist in the liturgy of the Roman Rite?

The Byzantine Rite also has its share of colloquial differences that we refer to as various "recensions" of the liturgy. Ruthenians, Greeks, Russians, Arabs, etc each have their own particular styles that make up the experience of worship among these traditions. While the words and structure of the liturgy remain basically the same everywhere, chant, vestment style, mannerisms, postures, hymns and more, all vary from people to people. Liturgical uniformity is unknown to the East, where the liturgy has always been viewed as an expression of both faith and culture. If there was more uniformity in the Roman Rite prior to the reforms, I would venture to say that there was also something lacking in regards to "enculturation" or the commingling of people's every day experiences with prayer to their God who is truly involved in their lives. I know some people don't see the need for this.

Our rite may appear to some to be more reverent and mystical than the Roman today, but on the other hand, it bears little resemblance to pre-Vatican II Latin liturgy. Just because the priest and congregation all face the same way and the sanctuary is contained within an "iconostasis" does not mean that the same ideology as the Tridentine Rite is being employed. In fact, the Byzantine liturgy has always been one in which priest and congregation continually interact through dialogue, processions, etc. The altar is not fixed against a wall, but free-standing. The liturgy was always in a language the people could understand, except for some instances in recent times when Church Slavonic or ecclesiastical Greek have evolved into literary languages which are not the vernacular. This is changing though, in places that have developed "liturgical" languages, to restore the service to a living expression of faith.

All of my life I have been a Greek Catholic, but have had many opportunities to participate in the Roman liturgy, both as a member of the congregation and as a concelebrant. I have seen what we would term as "good" and "bad" liturgy, depending on the particular parish, occasion, celebrants and abilities of the other ministers (music, choir, reading, etc). The same can be said for liturgies of the Byzantine Rite. Sometimes they are executed perfectly, with such devotion and beauty that one would think they were in heaven. At other times, the service was done so poorly that, if it were my first time, I would never be moved to return again. Celebrants get sloppy, cantors are ill-trained, congregations can be indifferent - all of these factors can have a bearing on any liturgical celebration. This does not mean that the liturgy cannot be beautiful and inspiring and, being the Eucharistic sacrifice, in any tradition, it is never a waste of time.

I have had the privilege to attend wonderful Roman Rite masses that have truly inspired me to prayer, devotion and Christian living. Sometimes, I enjoy the chance to attend a mass, to put a different perspective on my normal, everyday Byzantine ethos. The change in atmosphere can be worthwhile and refreshing. When traveling, I normally take the time to stop at the nearest Roman Catholic church, make a visit and if possible, attend mass and pray privately. There are many churches that are quite traditional in architecture and decoration, in which, except the arrangement of the sanctuary for the current liturgical prescriptions, I see very little that would be different from 1952. I do admit that many of the newer-built churches are designed in very poor taste, with few devotional objects and quite bland and unbecoming for a Catholic church. This is a problem that needs to be addressed by the local diocesan bishops and their building commissions. In some places one has to wonder what went wrong.

The structure and content of the present Roman mass is fashioned after historical liturgical forms that reflect the church's continuity with the early community. The integral elements of Christian liturgy - enarxis (entrance-assembly), scripture readings, petitions, offertory, canon (eucharistic prayer), communion, thanksgiving and dismissal are quite present in the current missal. From my observations, the basic parts of today's liturgy in and of themselves, are not that different at all from the previous Roman rite. Agreeably, there were many reforms taken to present a liturgy that is truer to the functions of worship than much of the heavy laden, Tridentine ritual. The "novus ordo" is much simpler, to the point, and thus understandable, than the previous missal.

In the Byzantine Rite as well, the present liturgikon contains elements that were added over the centuries and many are repetitious or obscure, the purpose of which is not at all understood by the people praying them. If one were to go back in time, and attend the liturgy in Hagia Sophia during the era of St. John Chrysostom, the service would hardly resemble what we have today. In fact, in many ways the worship of Chrysostom's time would bear a closer similarity to the "novus ordo" than does our modern day Byzantine Divine Liturgy. This is because the basic structures and functions of liturgy, mentioned above were much more obvious and simplified than today's standardized ritual that includes additions and adaptations from over 1000 years. This is not to say that I believe the Byzantine liturgy should be reformed at any time soon. Maybe it should, maybe not and I would not be opposed to a study of this need, but for us easterners, liturgical reform would necessitate, (as it did in the Roman Church) the input and cooperation of the whole church that uses our rite, Orthodox and Catholic, a situation that I cannot foresee in the reasonable future.

By definition, liturgy is "the work of the people" or "what the people do" in regards to worshipping God as a community. Therefore, it must be alive, relevant and able to communicate to the people using it. This was the goal of the fathers of Vatican II and beyond, who sought to bring the liturgy, along with other aspects of the church, into modern times and restore to a large degree, their purpose and meaning.

To many people, the "new" mass lacks dignity and solemnity and for these, there is something missing. However, I believe that a lot of people are simply resistant to any kind of change and the mass was one of the few places that they felt change would never reach. When it did, these people were shocked. I am sensitive to the feelings of those here, especially many who make excellent contributions to the forum on other topics, who have an affinity for the Tridentine Rite and see the current mass as irreverent. I hope not to offend them by offering my feelings about this issue. But, I also understand how people feel who find the novus ordo a comfortable and spiritually fruitful way to celebrate the Eucharist. There are so many ways in which the "mass" can speak to us today and likewise much that we can ourselves bring to the celebration. There is flexibility in the Roman Rite that we do not have in the Byzantine Church. As a Greek Catholic, I can appreciate this other living expression of faith and look forward to those occasional times when God allows me to participate in the worship of my Latin brothers and sisters. Let us all be sensitive to each other while remembering that the 1969 missal is the mass of the Latin Catholic Church. God bless. Joe

[ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: Joe ]

Steve, if emotionally you can't handle the debates here, then why don't you voluntarily get off the forum? Just like the television — if you don't like it, flip the channel or turn the thing off. The record speaks for itself and my friends have defended me.

"'Eastern PreSuppositions' and Western Liturgical Renewal," Forum : East and West Page three of postings in the index for that forum.

"Anyone Familiar with the Journal Adoremus," Forum: East and West Current index page.

"Rite or Wrong," Forum: Byzantine Faith or Worship
Current index page.

Actually our self-appointed 'Net nanny has done me a favor: all of these threads began with someone else bringing up the Roman Rite and/or criticizing abuses in the NO, as their titles clearly show. NONE involves me or anyone else speaking out of turn by gratuitously bringing up those topics in threads dedicated wholly to the East. If you don't like such threads, fine — don't read them!

One of the places where I go to to learn about the East is the Indiana Orthdox list. My fellow posters, would such behavior be tolerated there?

ROTFLMAO! Yeah, there's a hotbed of charity and goodwill towards Catholics. You hang out there, yet have the temerity to calumniate me, calling me a Catholic-basher?!

I've done nothing on the aforementioned threads other than repeat points — and quote and copy Day's witty style (humor sure does p*ss off the opposition) — made by Roman Catholics (including Day) themselves.

So Steve, Don, Olya, Maria — GET OVER IT.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Maria,

I am sorry to hear that you feel that us Latin-Rite Catholics have been unfairly criticised by the Eastern Catholics and Orthodox.

I do not take the same view. I love the Latin-Rite liturgy, but, as many of the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic people have posted on here (and in most cases in a very constructive and charitable way), there are current difficulties with it which we need to work on reforming. We shouldn't always look upon a criticism as a disliking or disregarding. All of us need correction and improvement at times and the Latin-Rite liturgy is not immune. There is so much we can learn from our Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters. Pope John Paul II has even encouraged us to "become familiar" with Eastern Christianity (see the opening paragraphs of Orientale Lumen). I have only recently started posting on this board but I have been tremendously blessed over the past few years with the insights I have gained from the posters on this message board. I have Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox friends here in Australia and I have NEVER felt that they have unfairly criticised the Latin Rite Church and liturgy. I love them and I want them as friends for life. This is not to say that they're all Saints, but I have gained a tremendous amount from them spiritually through knowing them and attending their liturgies. There is much we can learn from the Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, just like there is much that they can learn from us.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the majority of Eastern / Oriental Orthodox & Eastern Catholic posters on this board for their fervent love of their faith which not only spills out into their own respective churches but which also encourages us in the Latin Rite to grow in love for our faith and for the reunication of full communion of the truth faith. I desire full communion between all Christians, but most fervently between the two great Apostolic faiths, Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

May God bless you all - Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholic in all that you do.

Love in Christ from the land down under, Aussie Man.

PS: Serge, on a personal note, I have found your site to be very objective and balanced, and I find your views on Western Christianity very well thought and articulated. I have been studying in depth the Catholic - Orthodox issue for a few years now, and like I said to you in another post, I have found in particular your Q&A on Catholic / Orthodox differences to be a very useful piece to refer to both Catholic & Orthodox friends. Although it is only short, I have found that after referring it to them they have (1) A much better idea of where the "other side" is coming from; (2) a greater respect and appreciation for the "other sides" differences. Keep up the good work. As we like to say down here in Australia, "good on ya mate".

Roman Catholic Friends,

You surely have the right to have your liturgy treated with respect. The Latin liturgy should not be a major topic of discussion here, because it is not our liturgy. But since you have raised the issue here may I gently ask, without mocking, concerning just two matters which do seem to be major abuses in the Roman liturgy which you seem to have defended as correct practices.

(I may have misunderstood the intent of your posts. If I have please forgive me.)

First, It is my understanding that lay "Eucharistic ministers" are only to be used in case of dire emergency. Yet, I know that they are used regularly in virtually all parishes. A close friend recounts how a lay eucharistic minister even served several priests and a bishop at a recent dedication of a new Roman Catholic Church. My friend, who is a priest, was greatly offended. I believe he had a right to be deeply offended. Do you consider this an abuse or not?

Second, the Gregorian Chant is supposed to be the standard for Roman Catholic liturgy according to VC II. English translations have been made, approved, and widely distributed. Yet, almost no American congregation uses them. Is this an abuse or not?

I believe both practices cheapen the beauty and reverence of the Roman mass. Even if they don't in everyone's eyes they certainly do in mine.

I think that there is a depth to Roman spirituality that is being lost by these abuses. It does not make me want to mock your liturgy but it certainly makes me sad.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Serge,

Thank you for your concern for my emotional well being. I'm doing fine, thanks, and my spiritual father agrees. Rest easy, it never entered my mind to leave.

Perhaps my request to Don for prayers alarmed you. Do you not agree that expressing oneself with patience and love at any time but especially in trying circumstances is taxing? Prayer does help Serge!

Posted by Serge:
"Steve, if emotionally you can't handle the debates here, then why don't you voluntarily get off the forum? Just like the television — if you don't like it, flip the channel or turn the thing off. The record speaks for itself and my friends have defended me."

I am sorry that you feel the need to attack ad hominem, though. Debates done with love and respect are good. Exchange of information done in love and respect is good. Constructive questioning and criticism done in love and respect is great!

It is not that which bothers me. Ad hominem....? Quote of pueile humor about sacred things....? I find it difficult to fit those things in. It is a puzzlement! Perhaps, sometimes the behavior on the channel is simply beyond the pale. The channel is fine.

It speaks highly of your friends that they defend you. It speaks highly of you. I would expect nothing less.

Now, when those whom you understand to be calumnating you praise you, that is high praise indeed for you is it not? Seems to me that you should perceive me to be in that group. Sad though, I have not calumniated you or anyone else.

I simply asked for all of us, including you and me, to post with love and respect. Is that the calumny of which you speak?

Steve's Words Quoted and Posted by Serge:
"'Eastern PreSuppositions' and Western Liturgical Renewal," Forum : East and West Page three of postings in the index for that forum.

"Anyone Familiar with the Journal Adoremus," Forum: East and West Current index page.

"Rite or Wrong," Forum: Byzantine Faith or Worship
Current index page.

Posted by Serge:
"Actually our self-appointed 'Net nanny has done me a favor: all of these threads began with someone else bringing up the Roman Rite and or criticizing abuses in the NO, as their titles clearly show. NONE involves me or anyone else speaking out of turn by gratuititously bringing up those topics in threads dedicated wholly to the East. If you don't like such threads, fine — don't read them!"

Serge, please read my responses there. I think you will see that I and others have noted and discussed issues relevent to this topic in those postings.

I like to learn and intend to read as much as I can. I love my Church and her Liturgy. When I perceive an untoward behavior toward her or words which belittle her, I will say so.

I think that most of my comments in those threads were posted in that context concerning specific issues. I tried to do that with directness but with respect and love for those I was addressing and for their beliefs. I will speak up for my Church. I simply cannot do otherwise.

Steve's Words Quoted by Serge:
"One of the places where I go to to learn about the East is the Indiana Orthdox list. My fellow posters, would such behavior be tolerated there?"

Posted by Serge:
"ROTFLMAO! Yeah, there's a hotbed of charity and goodwill towards Catholics. You hang out there, yet have the temerity to calumniate me, calling me a Catholic-basher?!"

Don't hurt your head or anything else! Serge, please don't expand the shoe unless you need to get into it. I haven't called you anything.

In regard to you, I was talking about specific examples of behavior and an attitude that is limited in nature it seems to me. In this thread I simply reposted two parts of your posting in which the Latin Liturgy or our liturgical ways were cleary made the object of school boy humor.

I noted that this seems to me to be inappropriate behavior that consisted of mocking our liturgical ways. Is there another way to see those postings? I pointed out that Olga raised her concern about one of them and the ensuing way in which she was told that she was incorrect and that you are procatholic and that she should apologize to you.

I must admit to being surprised by your tone and reaction to my visits to the Orthdox List at Indiana. I don't choose to classify the posters there. That is an Orthodox site; it is not mine to comment on in a public forum.

Like here, I go there to learn. I, like Maria, am a lurker at times. There is no cause for me not to go there. I go to your site too. I am a catholic learner and reader with catholic interests. I have a catholic taste in sites too.

Posted by Serge:
"I've done nothing on the aforementioned threads other than repeat points — and quote and copy Day's witty style (humor sure does p*ss off the opposition) — made by Roman Catholics (including Day) themselves."

The words were others, Serge, but the judgement that they have value and insight into the practices of the Latin Liturgy and our liturgical ways is clearly yours. Somehow it would surprise me if the people you quoted were to be found on the Pope's suggested reading list for those wanting insight into Catholicism or into Latin Litrugy.

It was your posting delivering your message in whatever words you chose to quote. It was inappropirate. Not something from the balanced you from whom I've come to learn.

Dividing people into classes can be useful. We've had that discussion before. I think it's where I pointed out that I thought it inappropriate for an Orthodox poster to suggest that memebers of another Church, the Latin Church in that case, should have been cut from communion 30 years ago because you determined that they belonged to a group which did not exist outside of mental constructs. I still believe that it was an improper use of mental constructs and bad ecclesiology.

I'm sorry that you choose to see me and those who disagree with you as the opposition. For you to label as opposition those who recognize mocking language about sacred things appears be counter productive to me. But it is your post! You call it humor; I recognize it as inappropriate behavior.

I choose to see you as my brother in the Love of Christ. We disagree. I simply bring to your attentions some behaviors which I and others observe to be in appropriate among christians.

Posted by Serge:
"So Steve, Don, Olya, Maria — GET OVER IT."

So, Serge, I am not going anywhere voluntarily. I doubt that the others will either. I hope that Maria will come and stay!

This forum is the Byzantine Forum, not your private preserve. I am a guest here as you are. I like this place. I like you! I just happen to think that you cross the line when you talk about the Latin Liturgy and the Latin Church as you sometimes do.

I will get over your inappropriate behavior and intemperate words. I will point them out if they come in the future. I will do so with all of the Love that I can muster.

I hope that my presence here doesn't bother you. But, then there are some things which just can't be helped without prayer.

Hey, Please keep me in your prayers. It is taxing to have to deal with the topics I addressed in a place where Christian Love is supposed to be the norm. It's hard to hold onto the love without the prayer!

In turn, I will lift you up to the Lord when I pray.

Peace!

Steve
JOY!

Steve, if you want to put your head up your bum and pretend everything is fine in the RCC in the US regarding liturgical practice, that's your problem. I won't stop telling the truth on this forum unless the administrator throws me off.

Aussie Man: cheers, mate!

http://oldworldrus.com