www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox

Dear Dr. Eric,

I would like to thank you for sharing what I believe to be the most brilliant article on this topic which I have ever read.

It was incredibly well written and well intended. I like that the author is brutally honest and objective about this sad situation amongst converts (and cradle) in both our traditions.

In the end, when we leave this life, I don't think that any of these religious polemics, with all the pride and ego that is involved, will matter. Life is very short, and ultimately, our salvation is all that matters. We may love ourselves and want others to be exactly as we are, but we need to focus on loving Christ and His tenets more.

In His love,
Alice, Moderator

Amen to this!

I'm plum happy to see Porter post...again

james

I just wrote a whole bunch about this on an RC forum, quoting Orientale Lumen showing that the "other lung" is not only the Easter Catholics but also the Orthodox. Both are implicated in that lung.

Here's what I wrote:

This post is not baiting and I'm not even trying to inspire debate, I just want to set the record straight on this point.

I've read in these fora numerous times that when the Pope spoke of the Church breathing with two lungs, he meant the Latin and Eastern Catholic, not the Orthodox. I've tried to disagree, and explain that it was the Orthodox he was talking about, but few, alas, would listen. So I started doing some digging. Pope John Paul II didn't actually write this metaphor (but used it in speeches); in fact, he borrowed it from the Russian poet Vyacheslav Ivanov (it derives from the worldview of Vladimir Soloviev). Here's what Pope John Paul II has to say. This comes from his Encyclical Orientale Lumen (Light of the East):

From 1
Since, in fact, we believe that the venerable and ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches is an integral part of the heritage of Christ's Church, the first need for Catholics is to be familiar with that tradition, so as to be nourished by it and to encourage the process of unity in the best way possible for each.

Our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are very conscious of being the living bearers of this tradition, together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters [emphasis mine]. The members of the Catholic Church of the Latin tradition must also be fully acquainted with this treasure and thus feel, with the Pope, a passionate longing that the full manifestation of the Church's catholicity be restored to the Church and to the world, expressed not by a single tradition, and still less by one community in opposition to the other; and that we too may be granted a full taste of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church which is preserved and grows in the life of the Churches of the East as in those of the West.

From 3
I am thinking of the Eastern Churches, as did many other Popes in the past, aware that the mandate to preserve the Church's unity and to seek Christian unity tirelessly wherever it was wounded was addressed to them. A particularly close link already binds us. We have almost everything in common; and above all, we have in common the true longing for unity. [emphasis mine]

From 18
...Even when the second millennium experienced a hardening of the polemics and the separation, with mutual ignorance and prejudice increasing all the more, nonetheless constructive meetings between church leaders desirous of intensifying relations and fostering exchanges did not cease, nor did the holy efforts of men and women who, recognizing the setting of one group against the other as a grave sin, and being in love with unity and charity, attempted in many ways to promote the search for communion by prayer, study and reflection, and by open and cordial interaction.(43) All this praiseworthy work was to converge in the reflections of the Second Vatican Council and to be symbolized in the abrogation of the reciprocal excommunications of 1054 by Pope Paul VI and the Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras I.(44)

From 20
Of course, in today's outlook it appears that true union is possible only in total respect for the other's dignity without claiming that the whole array of uses and customs in the Latin Church is more complete or better suited to showing the fullness of correct doctrine [emphasis mine]; and again, that this union must be preceded by an awareness of communion that permeates the whole Church and is not limited to an agreement among leaders. Today we are conscious - and this has frequently been reasserted - that unity will be achieved how and when the Lord desires, and that it will require the contribution of love's sensitivity and creativity, perhaps even going beyond the forms already tried in history.(56)


From 21
It has been stressed several times that the full union of the Catholic Eastern Churches with the Church of Rome which has already been achieved must not imply a diminished awareness of their own authenticity and originality.(58) Wherever this occurred, the Second Vatican Council has urged them to rediscover their full identity, because they have "the right and the duty to govern themselves according to their own special disciplines. For these are guaranteed by ancient tradition, and seem to be better suited to the customs of their faithful and to the good of their souls."(59) These Churches carry a tragic wound, for they are still kept from full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches despite sharing in the heritage of their fathers [emphasis mine]. A constant, shared conversion is indispensable for them to advance resolutely and energetically towards mutual understanding. And conversion is also required of the Latin Church, that she may respect and fully appreciate the dignity of Eastern Christians, and accept gratefully the spiritual treasures of which the Eastern Catholic Churches are the bearers, to the benefit of the entire catholic communion;(60) that she may show concretely, far more than in the past, how much she esteems and admires the Christian East and how essential she considers its contribution to the full realization of the Church's universality.


Just trying to clear up some confusion. In this last paragraph (from 21), where the Pope exhorts Latins to respect and love the Eastern tradtions, "of which the Eastern Catholic Churches are bearers", he is urging Latins to explore Eastern Christianity through the Eastern Catholic Churches; he is NOT, however, suggesting that the Eastern traditions lie only in the Eastern Catholic Churches, but rather that these traditions are borne by the Eastern Catholic Churches within Roman communion as well as the Orthodox. This is plain when we look further up in 21 to where he laments that the Eastern Catholics are "kept from full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches."

I agree. as far as both Cathoics and canonical Orthodox attesting that both are the Holy Catholic Church, they are correct. what it boils down to is that both of us are possessed with the spirit of hubris. we are so full of ourselves that we have divided the Body of Christ not by dogma, but by pride. this has been going on LONG before 1054, and I dare say that the rift between Greek and Roman started in the days of antiquity when both were sources of civilization, and the Roman Empire had come to be known as the Greco Roman Empire,thus there was already a split between both Rome and Constantinople (Byzantium). we need to get over ourselves and stop this ongoing mutual anathematizing that should have ended with 1054.
Much Love,
Jonn

Amen to this, as well! Although in my part of the country, we say "plumb" meaning, I guess, right, straight, or true.

What was the response?

Andrew

Actually, I believe it was coined by the late theologian, Yves Congar, OP.

No matter! Clearly it was the Holy Spirit - the breath of God - who "breathed" this mystery into the mind and heart of the Church (Orthodox and Catholic).

Great article, BTW, Doc.

Gordo

Andrew,

I'm with you on this one. Apologetics does not equate with polemics. We should be ready to defend our positions, otherwise, why have positions at all?

At the same time, we should be ready to acknowldege truth from the "other side" of the ecclesial aisle. One should love the truth first, more than one's own opinions.

Gordo

Andrew, here's one response:

I'm shocked. No wait, I'm not.

Andrew

Personally I find the term "Pole-mics" to be a ethnic slur...

james

That's true. There oughta be some apologetic for that Polemic.

Andrew - a Mic, but not a Pole

Well, I'm a both Polish and Irish...

So the way I see it, polemic is OK, as long as it's not POLAKemic or something. Apparently the correct slur is polak or something like that -- I always thought of myself as a polak, though... huh?

I do like muscle relaxers...

james