www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Question: Marriage

Kelly,
You speak with wisdom.
Alas, though you rightly say, "I guess they should listen to the full reading," people just don't do what they should. For those who listen longer, there is a discomfort over the fact that there is no balancing, "Wives should love their husbands as they do their own bodies. She who loves her husband loves herself." It's the whole man/he-centered thing that gets the negative reaction.
Thank you for your response.

[ 04-25-2002: Message edited by: durak ]

Christos Voskrese!
Vostinnu Voskrese!

I recently ran across this problem with a friend of mine (of the Episcopalian variety). His fiancee emphatically stated, "I don't want THAT reading read at MY wedding" (emphasis hers). They are a rather odd couple, my friend being the "Sunday Episcopalian" and his future wife coming from a family of die-hard Southern Baptists. At this point, I ran to my car and pulled out my "standby" Latin missal (always keep one there just in case I forget my "good" one at home) that luckily had the nuptial Mass in it. After dealing with the rolling eyes and disbelief I had a missal on hand(I believe the phrase "super-Catholic" was used in a non-charitable fashion), I pointed out the fact that St. Paul exhorts the husband "to love your wives, as Christ loved the church". As Christ's love for the church is far deeper than anything we mere humans can muster, the husband is being asked to do far more. Plus, I said, the Apostle tells both to "submit (or defer, depending on the translation, of course) to one another", quite plainly. That sort of quieted her down, but I'm still not sure what's going to happen at the wedding. This whole ceremony is going to be interesting once the two families get intertwined at the reception and my friend's best man, who is known for being a bit of a loose cannon, makes his speech! I plead for your prayers!

In Christ,
mikey.

Mikey,
Prayers, for sure!
And forgiveness for me, please, for belaboring the obvious in trying to see the bride's point of view: All love of other and self comes from the male; respect and submission to other "in all things" are from the female.
God Bless you.

[ 04-25-2002: Message edited by: durak ]

Dear Kelly, Mikey, Durak, and others,

In the final exhortation which the priest gives bride and bridegroom in crownings in the Syrian rite, the priest says something which, I believe, expounds powerfully on the reading from Ephesians, which we also read in its entirety during the ceremony:

Moreover understand, O ye believers, that this command is given to you all. Let every one of you consider in himself how it becometh him to be connected with his wife. He should have delight in her and treat her with kindness: for she hath left her relations, and is joined to her husband. Though he himself should be naked, he must clothe her. And she must regard him as her own life. He must feed her, though he himself be hungry; and give her to drink, though he be thirsty. And in like manner it is her duty to serve him and obey him in love and constancy in all circumstances. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with us and you. Amen.

I remember hearing stories from my Mom about how this was lived out by her parents. Her father would divide the food on his dinner plate, and would not eat until he gave her mother from his own plate, and for his dinner, he would only eat one third of what was placed before him, giving one third to his wife, and the remaining third he divided amongst his seven children...granted it was only a handful of rice, it is something all of them cherish to this day.

[ 04-25-2002: Message edited by: Mor Ephrem ]

Father S.,

What a way to think. The home is no longer a home but a small church.

You Easterners can have some pretty good things to say sometimes. I suppose your not half bad.

Mor Ephrem, thank you for sharing the final exhortation from the Syrian Rite and the loving witness your maternal grandparents were of this exhortation!

So do the Ethiopians, but here's some Palestinian wedding mirth [islamicchants.hispeed.com] .

For more information, go here [palestinianembroider.tripod.com] .

So what do your Indian women contest each other at then? The villages of the bride and groom like to bring out their best who proceed to recite creative poetic lines congratulating the happy couple and then belting out a good "zaghroutah". What do Indians do instead?

In IC XC
Samer

[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: SamB ]

In the Latin (Roman) Rite the two partners do indeed confer the sacrament themselves. The minister is the "official witness" for the Church. Under canon law, with the proper delegation, the minister or "official witness" on behalf of the Church may be a priest, deacon, or even lay person.

Deacon Doug

Dear Samer,

I'm not sure what Indian women do. All the Indian weddings I've ever gone to have been Christian, and so it's more or less done like in the West...mostly quiet compared to Middle Eastern weddings, I'd imagine. Now, Hindu weddings are another story...all sorts of cool stuff happens there, I just don't know what that is.

Two things:

1) The marriage reading in the Epistle to the Ephesians, the wife is not the only one called to who subjects oneself to the other. The husband must love his wife "even as Christ loved the Church" surrendering His life for His Bride (the Church) even unto death on the cross. Husbands must lovingly serve their wives in the way Christ love the Church and wives should give loving service to their husbands, as the Church does to Christ.

2) I was once at a marriage rehearsal at a Latin Church. Besides the priest's suggestions for various tacky and trendy practices to be incorporated into the wedding ceremony, one suggestion stood out to me. He suggested "Since I'm only a witness to your wedding, -- you actually marry yourselves -- why don't you stand in the place the priest usually stands and I'll stand out there among the pews with the people. After all, I'm only a witness, together with the assembly."

After the rehearsal I suggested to the bride-to-be, my sister, that she should only give a dollar to the priest for his service and share the rest of the stipend-donation with the all the other "witnesses", -- after all he's only a witness like the rest of us.

"wives should give loving service to their husbands, as the Church does to Christ."

This is a very fine interpetation for what it is to "submit" and "respect." Alas, the role of the woman has to be intrpreted, the man's role not. This is the "rub" for many young women in the year 2002.

[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: durak ]

Durak,

--------------------------------------------------
"This is a very fine interpetation for what it is to "submit" and "respect." Alas, the role of the woman has to be intrpreted, the man's role not. This is the "rub" for many young women in the year 2002." --------------------------------------

I think that the mystical roles of both the husband and the wife, as outlined in the Epistle to the Ephesians, have to be interpreted properly.

In fact, St. Paul himself elaborated on what it means for a man to love his wife. (A husband could think that all he has to do is "love", whatever that means today.) To St Paul, the exhortation that husbands 'love' their wives means that they must be willing to surrender themselves in service to their spouses as Christ Himself surrendered Himself on the Cross for the salvation of His Church. In the concrete, the husband has to look after the spiritual, emotional, and physical needs of his wife and family, even as the wife is called to do.

Esteemed Lazareno,

"husband has to look after the spiritual, emotional, and physical needs of his wife and
family, even as the wife is called to do."

Again and again, you are so so right. But in your explication the wife is in the "needy" role, interpretaion follows. What the "wife is called to do," other than submit and respect (revisit the Ephesians text) is again in need of having to be made clear in a didactic type sermon.
"Ugh" is the usual reaction of congregation, bridal couple and priest.

[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: durak ]

[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: durak ]

"even as the wife is called to do"

By the above words I meant that the wife is called to care for the needs of her spouse and family, just as the husband must.

Our discomfort with Saint Paul's words here, I believe, comes from our American/Western culture in which it is presumed that equality means same-ness. But it is not. Men and women are equal in the sense that they both are the image of God. But they are not the same physically, emotionally, etc., and thus there are also cultural expectations (not always correct). A man and woman can be parents, but these roles are not exactly the same. The male and female genders are not in opposition to each other (unless we will it to be so) but are complementary. But they complement eachother precisely because they are distinct. As the French would say: "Viva la diference!" It is only in the complementarity of their being and bodies that a man and woman can give life to another.

"...submitting yourselves to one another in the fear of God." Ephesians 5:20.

Saint John Chrysostom comments: "Let there be an exchange of service and submission. For then there will be no such thing as slavish service." (Homily on Ephesians 5).

Esteemed Lazareno,

Obviously, you are deeply formed in the mind of the Scriptures and the Church.

Obviously, I have experienced too many Byzantine weddings in which the groom is wishing it were over, the bride won her battle to walk down the aisle "soap opera style," the grandparents are forseeing their grandchildren being raised outside the Tradition they love, and a priest who whose idea of preparation for this Mystery was an interview with the couple and making sure all the papers were in order, all the while wishing he were doing a funeral instead.
Lord, forgive me.