www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Question for Latins going East

Yes I believe that I would be, but maybe not so much as a means to participate on Sunday obligations. My first love is the TLM. I guess I am always going to look at things from a Western viewpoint. Maybe because that is just the way I was raised. What I find a bit disturbing is that I did not even know there were ERCC until I was in my thirties !!!!!! I went to Catholic grade school and high school too.

The Latin Mass (Tridentine) has its own beauty and holiness, for Latins of course. It's a shame that Latins have to endure what is in reality a truncated liturgy (and since there is no EC church in commuting distance in my town, I have to endure itr as well).I think about an aquaintence of mine who converted from Fundamentalism to Catholicism, and is plus catholique que le papa, and last I heard, he was going to the (non authorized) Tridentine Mass in Benton, TN. for me, the Latin church has been pretty much alien to me in many ways, and I suggest that the question could be turned around and one could ask if an Eastern would want to turn Latin, and I, for my part, can heartily answer NO.
Much Love,
Jonn

I think a point which should be stressed here is that the ancient Roman liturgy, when done in its fullness (Solemn High Mass or High Mass) is also a mystical taste of Heaven.

The problem that we had in the Latin Church was the very thing the Liturgical Movement was seeking to redress -- a more minimalistic approach to authentic Roman liturgy. If we can correct that, both lungs will return to their inheritance. The East is to be commended for never having lost this in typical parish worship.

I personally think East and West need each other and have something to offer in both directions.

Hi, Billy - -

I re-quoted your post above because I thought it was so well-written and I didn't see that anyone had responded to it!

I too am a Latin-till-death Catholic, and my good experiences with the Byzantine Catholic Church have only served to reinforce my love for the Latin Rite. Though I have faithfully attended the Divine Liturgy for a couple of years now and love it, every so often I have the urge to sneak away and attend Mass at one of the beautiful California Missions (like San Juan Capistrano or San Fernando). There's nothing like it if you want to experience a connection with the Church of the ages!

I also say yes. The operative phrase on this thread is,"Found a home'.

Jonn, you probably are aware that there is a Traditional Latin Mass on the 1st Sunday of each month at St. Stephen Church in Chattanooga. It is fully approved and endorsed by the RC Bishop of Knoxville.

I couldn't agree with you more sir. What was suppose to be a liturgical development has turned into a fabricated liturgy with no flow, bland language, and abuses too many to list here. In fact, the blander the better !!

It's hard to say in my case. I was an altar
boy in the pre-conciliar Western Church, and
I will always be attached to the Traditional
Mass and Devotions (Benediction, Tenebrae,
Stations of the Cross, et al). However, it's
not just the Tridentine Mass that needs to be
restored in the Western Church. It's the whole
"sense of the sacred" that has been lost. I fear
that if all of a sudden the Traditional Mass
was restored to the Western Church, it would
unavoidably be subject to the same sort of
abuses that are so widespread in the Novus Ordo,
and would end up just as bland and banal as
most Novus Ordo services are. That's why "Latin
refugees" like me are so concerned with the
upcoming "New Translation of the Liturgy" as we
don't want to see a "Novus Ordo-nization" of the
Ruthenian Rite.

antonius

oh, yes. in fact, I live in the parish confines of St.Stephen's, and perhaps sometime, I'll go to the Latin Mass. what is ironic, is that this EC knows more Church Latin than most Latins my age and younger. in 1982, the priest at Sts. Peter and Paul decided that he would toss in some Latin (and Greek) at Midnight Mass (Christmas). most of the Latins had blank looks on their faces, I, for my part, got over my surprise by the second beat, and followed along with the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Pater Noster. I guess I have a gift for languages, thus picking up Latin as I read and (somewhat) speak Spanish. I used to attend Mass at Christ Episcopal, and they used to have Evensong. One time, it was a Latin Mass (with Episcopal rubrics). The priest knew that I had a working knowledge of Church Latin, and followed me by half a beat, the rest of the congregation behind him by half a beat, he never took his eyes off of me until he did the Consecration with his back to the congregation. think of the possibilities if I created my own rubrics.mmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Much Love,
Jonn

To quote the greatest Latin Catholic of them all, Rocky Balboa:

Aabsuloottlee.

Gordo

When i converted from Lutheran to RC I had already a lot of contact to the East namely some Russian and Greek orthodox parishes in Europe. When I discovered shortly after that there is a byzantine rite in the RC I changed rite w/o any hesitation. The eastern spirtualitiy is my home and I feel lost in any kind of Latin rite (Tridentine or Novus Ordo doesn't matter). I am meanwhile at the point that if I would be in the situation to have to choose between attending Divine Liturgy in an orthodox parish or mass at RC I know that I would go with the Divine Liturgy, although I know that I couldn't go to communion.
Maybe that is one of the reasons that I am hurt everytime if there is a mix and match situation in spiritualtity (keyword "Latinizations"). In my eyes it is about spirituality and a mix and match in the official public serice of the church doesn't do them just in my eyes. What someone does in his own private prayer is not mine to judge - it is not my business at all.

I wanted to answer for a while, but I've hadn't the time to put my thoughts down. However, I will do so now, as a Roman who is moving more and more to the East.

The short and simple answer to your question is "yes".

The thing that attracts me to the Byzantine Rite is the spirituality and the whole way things are done. The Byzantine Church has taken its own liturgical (musical, iconographic, etc.) and spiritual way which I am attracted to and which is different in form (if not ultimate purpose) to the Latin Church. I simply feel more drawn to this Rite over the Roman Rite, under any circumstances.

I have mentioned elsewhere that I prefer the Pauline Missal - in a way similar to that used either at Pope Benedict's innaugural Mass or to EWTN - over the Pian missal under any circumstances (and as a former "trad", I have seem many different local usages). I was going to explain why, but I went down a long, rambling and unsolicited rabbit hole and so I will not post on this now.

There are plenty of good parishes in my local diocese who would welcome my volunteer efforts to, say, help restore Gregorian chant to regular liturgical use. I only have one voice and limited time. I must choose one Rite over the other, and my choice will probably be Byzantine.

Marc

Yes! A million times, Yes!

I didn't "head East" out of a dislike for the Novus Ordo. I could have found a TLM parish for that.

I have friends who are self-described Traditionalist who do attend a Ruthenian parish because the TLM that they prefer to attend is too far away for regular attendance. The invited us to the Ruthenian parish and we accepted out of a curiosity about the Eastern Rites.

We were converts who knew very little about the Eastern Catholic Churches (though we were somewhat familiar with the Greek Orthodox).

So out of a desire to learn more about the Catholic Church we attended a Divine Liturgy.

And we haven't looked backward since.

The Latin Mass is lovely and solemn.

But the Divine Liturgy is transcendently beautiful and fills our souls in a way that no form of worship in the Roman Church has.

Had we known about the Eastern Catholic Churches at the time of our conversion we would not have chosen the Roman Rite.

So yes - Even if the Traditional Latin Mass were the normative Liturgy and it was celebrated with all due reverence and solemnity I would still be heading East with my family!

We have found the food that nourishes our spirits ... we could go no where else.

With me it was a bit of an ironic return. My descendants on my mother's side were from the Austo-Hungarian Empire who, like many first-wave Greek Catholics, became Latins after emigrating into a rural area and finding nothing except RC parishes. Four generations later, I went back as a teenager.

I've spent time with the TLM movement and even taught at a school established by Msgr. Lefebvre for a while even though I was an Eastern Christian. I completely support the TLM movement and knew most of the players in the 1988 negotations which established the Fraternity of St. Peter. I have sung and continue to sing in TLM Latin scholas when I have the chance. But my gaze was and is always towards the Orientale Lumen.

Sort of the reverse of LatByzEastNovice, I will always look at things with an Eastern Christian perspective. I had the opportunity in my Christian Brothers high school many years ago to have a brother for one of my religion classes who was from one of those grand old neighborhoods in Cleveland where there were RC, EC, and Orthodox parishes all a couple of blocks apart.

He told me things from his experience that were very helpful, and he could see immediately that I had a much more Eastern than Western Christian viewpoint which I hadn't really recognized until that point.

I brought my traditionalist friend to his first Divine Liturgy last night... he found it to be very interesting and mentioned that it had many similarities to the Tridentine, but many differences as well. (We went on Saturday night, and there was no chanting or incense, sort of a "Low" Divine Liturgy, so I told him to attend some Sunday at 10 AM to really experience it.)

He noted a few things; one that I pointed out that he agreed with was the explicit mentioning of Jesus as God as opposed to Son of God or Lord even though both euphemistacally mean Jesus is Divine.. Also, the mentioning Our Lady and the prayers for the hierarchy (especially the Holy Father)... even in the Tridentine Mass, the Blessed Virgin is only mentioned maybe four times, and only twice in the Novus Ordo, and the Holy Father is only prayed for once.

This made me really think about why I love the East, and I guess it's because it's the only Liturgy that I think empasizes the Sacramental/Mysterious aspect of the Holy Eucharist as paramount. The Tridentine is very much an emphasis on remembering the Holy Sacrifice on Calvary. It's very Good Friday focused. The Novus Ordo is very much an emphasis on the communion meal of the believers and how that unites us. It's very Holy Thursday focused. The Divine Liturgy seems to me to be the most Easter SUnday focused, especially in the light of Theosis. The Sacramental aspect exists in the Tridentine and Novus Ordo of course, but it's never given pride of place, which makes sense in the Latin mind of emphasizing the Sacred Humanity of Our Lord. The Sacrificial and Meal aspects, although having a decided component of Divinity are more of an embrace of Christ's Sacred Humanity, while the Sacramental/Mystery approach is very much an emphasis of the Divinity of Christ. That's kind of a genesis of why we have Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, and why it is so solemn; it's the most "theophanous" ritual in the Latin West.