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OK a little FYI here - dealing with the original Press clipping from Irish Anchoress

Over here in the UK [ honestly not sure about Eire ] but yes, these agreements that Charles mentioned, can be made BUT why they were looking for legal status would be for things like Government Pension , Tax benefits, National Insurance benefits etc - to receive them a couple have to be a legally married couple.

For some work related benefits eg free/subsidised travel for transport employees [ where it is given ] 'gay' couples have resorted to court action to gain these and as a result that discrimination has on the whole I believe stopped.

Please note - I do not state whether or not I agree with this - I'm just trying to help clarify things a wee bit

Anhelyna

I would like to stay Charles is right, that only God can judge and I stand corrected in that. However, I do know what the Scripture tells us, and that concerns me for their soul and mine.

We have had many friends through the years(we've been married 35 yrs.) that have been homosexual, and we have loved them just as we would our hetrosexual friends. We have also and stil do have many friends who are homosexual and living a chaste life just as we do hetrosexual friends, I believe both are very pleasing to God. If we have friends, unmarried, who are not living a chaste life that is wrong, and I will not be afraid to say so. However, everything must be said with love and compassion and said in private or at a time that the door is opened for conversation, not just in blatant moment of judgement. Judging someone is wrong, you are right only God can judge. However his Word gives us knowledge to call a spade a spade. Whether homosexual or hetrosexual having sex outside of marriage is just as wrong!

The bottom line is to love the sinner and not the sin. To say something without love and comapassion is but a clanging cymbol before man and God, it bears no fruit. To say it with love, and in right order, lets the light of Christ shine through and helps man to make peace with himself and God.

Pani Rose

Charles,
You miss the "Irishism" it is quite common for people in Ireland to say such phrases as "the poor thing" or even "the poor creature" nothing bad is meant by it.
Stephanos I

Further to Anhelyna's point (which is well taken): problems can arise because of the inconsistency of existing legislation, and sometimes these problems can be quite serious. Sex (or rather the pracice of sex) need not be involved. To take a simple example, two people decide to purchase a dwelling-house together (perhaps for economic reasons, perhaps for reasons of security, or whatever). They live in the house, which is the only dwelling-place either one of them has, and they share the expenses for 20 or 30 years. One then dies - and if they have bought the house jointly the survivor gets hit with an enormous tax bill, probably at the time of life when the survivor is living on a fixed income. But this is by no means true everywhere. Neither are the rules and conditions for avoiding such a huge tax bill the same everywhere; it can become unbearably complicated. Hence many people think that it would be better to have an across-the-board law regulating the inheritance of one's own home, probably specifying that if this really is
the place where you live and have already lived for X number of years, you inherit the house tax-free. An excellent legal reason for doing this is that it reduces the likelihood that the survivor will become dependent on government assistance.
There are many such issues, and the differences from one place to another can become maddening. Hence the desire to have a standard regulation throughout the European Union (which is where Anhelyna lives).

Incognitus

It's not just an Irishism - I've never been there - and I do it

I have even been known to say 'you poor wee soul ' - have done this to at least 2 members of this Forum and they understood perfectly.

Anhelyna

Dear Father Stephanos, dear Anhelyna,

Thank you for your replies. This thread, which was begun by Irish Anchoress, touches on issues which evoke strong reactions by people of faith, reactions which span a rather broad spectrum of views. Archbishop Diarmuid Martin was voicing his views about what is just in Irish civil law. He is a man of deep faith. He spent many years in the service of the Holy See, including several years as Secretary of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace and as Permanent Observer of the Holy See to the United Nations` Office in Geneva.

I might discount such a phrase as "poor things" if it were not for the comments which preceded it, especially the use of the word "satanic." Such words, when applied to people or their actions, do demonize them (no pun intended) and also dehumanize them. So, when "poor things" follows the suggestion that certain actions may be satanic, I do not discount the phrase as a colloquialism.

I also note that Irish Anchoress posted on this Forum after I posted my reply and she did not clarify her comments about "Bishop Buckley." It appears to me - and I apologize if I my perception is wrong - that Irish Anchoress does not take kindly to being asked to clarify an unfounded or unclear statement.

Anhelyna, I would never object to being called a "poor wee soul" - you can call me that whenever you wish. BTW, I find your posts to be beautiful and faith-filled.

Take care and God bless,

Charles

[QUOTE]

With respect, I must disagree with you when you state that "Any thought and action that is not within
our Lord's Grace, is definitely out of Grace, and therefore satanic."

As for your comment on the results of civil unions "but it will also make insurance rates
rise...tremendously", please advise what studies or other documentation you have to support your
statement.

Dear Charles,

Within the spectrum of the state of one's soul, there is a center. The grey area's are either on one side of Grace or the other. They are either with our Lord, or without out Lord. Now to what extent, depends on the individual and their spiritual growth.

As for the cost of recognizing civil unions, I had heard it mentioned on a news broadcast that in Canada, they are now realizing the astronomical costs of accepting them. But then again, that is common sense, if one considers that homosexuals will be getting the same benefits as married couples. Especially if one considers the prevalancy of AIDS in the homosexual community.

As for homosexuality itself, it appears we are living in an immoral era. It was not prevalent in era's where it was not accepted. They were not all hiding in closets, as so many want to assume.

As an example: When reading the authorized biography of Lawrence of Arabia, his closest friend was an admitted homosexual. When asked if Lawrence was, he said that the very idea would have been abhorrent to him. He also stated that one must understand the times. It was something that simply did not enter one's mind.

The same thing was also mentioned in a catalogue on the Belle Epoch by the Metropolitan Museum of Art. The catalogue stated, that lesbianism was common and laughed about, (we have only to look at the paintings of the expressionists), while the idea of male homosexuality, was abhorrent, as well as a criminal offense.

Again, Lord Byron stated how he loved going to the Near East under the Ottomans, where such things were acceptable...and I could go on and on.

It appears from these writings, as well as from my own experience in my youth, that the idea of homosexuality enters minds more readily in a decadent era such as ours. An era and place where people have turned from our Lord.

I personally consider such things demonic, as I do so many other things such as depression, etc., as well as the rise of witchcraft and these New Age movements.

Zenovia

If depression is demonic, then medication and psycho-therapy have been better exorcists than holy water when I was recently suicidal. I find comments like this a slap in the face to all of us who suffer from clinical depression. I know of no credible Catholic or Othodox Church spokesperson that would describe medical or psychiatric illness as demonic. Oh, and by the way, my depression stems back to sexual abuse by a religious brother, a monk and the Church is paying for the psycho-therapy. If my depression were demonic in nature, wouldn't they offer a good old fashioned exorcism instead? It would be a whole lot cheaper for them. I am totally disgusted by this type of comment! Don

Dear Don,

Sorry if I offended you, it was not intended, especially from one that suffers chemical imbalances and depressions myself, and needs tranquilers to sleep. Actually depression is quite prevalent in my family, so I think what I stated was taken out of context. It's hard to relate one's own personal experiences in life to others that have not had similar experiences.

What I should have stated is that a whole society and atmosphere can fall under a shade of demonic influence and cause these things to become more commonplace.

I recall one theologian saying that Seattle had the largest suicide rate in the nation, (at the time). He said, (and I'd rather not mention his name), that at one time when he was in a hotel room in Seattle, he was overcome with the most oppressive sense of depression imaginable. He personally believes that each city and area, suffers from its own specific demon.

I can relate that to some of my own experiences. I recall times when I would wake with the most oppressive depression imaginable. I don't know how I would have survived even a minute of it, had I not prayed and been immediately freed.

I do not in any case suggest, that people stop taking medication. That would be rediculous. I would have to be the first one.

Zenovia

Dear Zenovia,

Peace! Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply.

I agree with you that people`s souls have grey areas which are either with the Lord or without the Lord. When I arise in the morning, I offer the day to God. Undoubtedly, there will be actions or lack of actions in a day which are not pleasing to Him and I ask Him to heal me and help me to correct those imperfections, those sins.

However, I do not believe that all personal sins are demonic actions. As human beings, we (the expansive "we") are imperfect and have an inclination to want things done our way, which is not always God`s way. While there is no doubt in my mind that all of us are, at times, tempted by the evil one, I believe that more of our sins are due, proximately, to our own pride and the temptations of the world rather than those of the father of lies.

As for the cost of civil unions, you referred to insurance rates. I believe, and our Canadians friends are surely the experts on this, that with socialized medicine (for all: I don`t think the word socialized is bad, any more than the words liberal or conservative), insurance rates are a non-starter if everyone is covered by health insurance.

As for "domestic partner" health insurance offered by some employers in the U.S., I know from family members that the person who is the primary policy holder pays a larger monthly premium for the partner`s coverage than for his/her own coverage and that the DP`s part of the premium is not tax-exempt, as are the primary policy holder`s premiums.

You stated "Especially if one considers the prevalancy of AIDS in the homosexual community." While a majority of the cases in the U.S. result from male-to-male contact (55% = 481K out of 877K) (CDC, cumulative cases through Dec 2002:
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats.htm#exposure )
that does not translate into "prevalent". If one is to accept the standard but unsubstantiated percentage of gays and lesbians to be 10 percent, then we would be looking at a gay/lesiban population in the U.S. of 29.5 million (based on the current population of almost 295 million:
http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/popclock )

My definition of "prevalent" would not mean just under 2% of a group (481K out of 29.5 million).
In fact, the overwhelming number of cases of HIV/AIDS world-wide is among heterosexuals. Botswana has the highest national rate - 36% of its adult population. Catholic News Service ran a sobering, sad story this past Monday. The bishop named in the story, Franklyn Nubuasah, is a great man. I have known him, by correspondence, since he was named a bishop. He shows the face of Jesus to the suffering
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0406286.htm

You wrote: "As for homosexuality itself, it appears we are living in an immoral era. It was not prevalent in era's where it was not accepted. They were not all hiding in closets, as so many want to assume." The two examples you cite do not make the case for it not being prevalent in past times. The first example is the personal opinion of one person about another. The second example has some very telling words: "the idea of male homosexuality, was abhorrent, as well as a criminal offense." That it was a criminal offense is all the more reason for gay men to be hiding in the closet. As for it being "abhorrent", that was the opinion of the person who wrote the article for MOMA.

Yes, there is much immorality in the world, but I find the lack of respect for life from conception to natural death (yes, Seamless Garment, which someone else called "nonsense"), the unbridled capitalism with all of its worse elements (greed, cut-throat commercialism, exploitation of workers and the poor)which has been exported to the rest of the world from the U.S., and the lack of self-control in all areas of life to be equally as troubling as the unbridled promiscuity among people of all ages and orientations. The tourist sex trade in Thailand comes to mind.

I believe that all of us who have been called to new life by Christ through baptism and chrismation have an obligation to bring healing to this world, by our words and by our actions and,yes, by our prayers. The sacraments of initiation configure us to Christ, making us part of His body. We must be His arms to embrace the sorrowing, His voice to speak loudly and often about justice, and by our actions make His love concrete and visible in a world which is hurting badly.

Thanks again for your reply.

Peace,

Charles